'73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

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Al Swearengen
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Al Swearengen » Tue May 18, 2021 5:19 am

cordlesscarpenter wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 12:00 pm
Try these folks. They did me well.

https://www.tracksnteeth.com/
[/quote]

Did you buy SALT for a 450 from them? Do you remember how much they ran?
[/quote]

I bought my SALT tracks from Berco about 11 years ago. Bought my sprockets from Berco too at the same time, but they were not very "finished", and if I had to do that again, I'd buy Deere sprockets. A couple years back I was referred to TNT on this site when looking for new shoes with relief holes cut. While they didn't have any with the holes cut, they send the new shoes out to get them plasma cut before shipping to me. Very pleased with them. Absolutely love the SALTS though.
'99 450G 6-Way

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Tue May 18, 2021 6:56 am

Hey Al, At first I thought Berco was a company but then realized it was a brand of track. "North American Track" carries Berco and I'm working with them on quotes. They were more expensive than AMS but I just emailed them again to see if their SALT chain was outfitted with the master "LINK" vs "PIN" that Leonard was talking about. A master "LINK" would totally justify the extra money per chain, making the PITA factor of breaking track for repairs more bearable. My parts guy says he thinks his SALT comes with a master "PIN"... after looking at a terrible photo he sent me, it looks like the SALT chain they sell is indeed a master link, it is a confusing pic to look at because they left the masking tape over the split in the chain from when they painted it, he is verifying with the supplier today.

That brings up another question... say I'm able to find a SALT chain with the master "LINK" and my final drive were to lock up leaving the master "LINK" in a position making it impossible to unbolt (say on the sprocket or anywhere on the bottom and I can't lift the machine), can SALT be separated by beating/pressing out a pin that's in a desired location without ruining the integrity of the chain? Reason bring this up is because this very machine came to me locked up (hoping it's just locked up clutches) and the master pin on the right side track was at the top of the sprocket with the final drive right there, leaving no room to drive the pin out... the pin was also installed backwards and tack welded, SMH, and I had to cut through the center of a link to separate (sure would be nice to own one of those fancy pin presses one day).
Last edited by cordlesscarpenter on Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Tue May 18, 2021 7:03 am

Everyone seems to be 'out of stock" of the narrow single full height dozer pads. Anyone know someone who's got the goods?
Last edited by cordlesscarpenter on Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Al Swearengen
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Al Swearengen » Tue May 18, 2021 8:03 am

cordlesscarpenter wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 6:56 am
Hey Al, At first I thought Berco was a company but then realized it was a brand of track. "North American Track" carries Berco and I'm working with them on quotes. They were more expensive than AMS but I just emailed them again to see if their SALT chain was outfitted with the master "LINK" vs "PIN" that Leonard was talking about. A master "LINK" would totally justify the extra money per chain, making the PITA factor of breaking track for repairs more bearable. My guy at AMS' says he thinks his SALT comes with a master "PIN"... after looking at a terrible photo he sent me, it looks like the SALT chain AMS sells is indeed a master link, it is a confusing pic to look at because they left the masking tape over the split in the chain from when they painted it, he is verifying with the supplier today. AMS is $50 cheaper per chain than NAT.

That brings up another question... say I'm able to find a SALT chain with the master "LINK" and my final drive were to lock up leaving the master "LINK" in a position making it impossible to unbolt (say on the sprocket or anywhere on the bottom and I can't lift the machine), can SALT be separated by beating/pressing out a pin that's in a desired location without ruining the integrity of the chain? Reason bring this up is because this very machine came to me locked up (hoping it's just locked up clutches) and the master pin on the right side track was at the top of the sprocket with the final drive right there, leaving no room to drive the pin out... the pin was also installed backwards and tack welded, SMH, and I had to cut through the center of a link to separate (sure would be nice to own one of those fancy pin presses one day).
The "alligator" mouth type link is awesome. Torched off my old rails and fit the new with no issues at all. I'd hate to do the pin thing compared to that. I think you would wreck a SALT entirely by removing a pin.
'99 450G 6-Way

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Al Swearengen
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Al Swearengen » Tue May 18, 2021 8:06 am

cordlesscarpenter wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:03 am

FYI, everyone seems to be 'out of stock" of the narrow single full height dozer pads. Anyone know someone who's got the goods?
Can you plasma cut to the size you need?
'99 450G 6-Way

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Tue May 18, 2021 10:07 am

Al Swearengen wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 8:06 am
cordlesscarpenter wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 7:03 am

FYI, everyone seems to be 'out of stock" of the narrow single full height dozer pads. Anyone know someone who's got the goods?
Can you plasma cut to the size you need?
I could plasma if I had a plasma torch here but it's in Montana where the machine and I will end up. Honestly though, I wouldn't torch them even if I had my torch here... sure it can be done but I I don't like the idea of having uneven overhang of pad relative to the center of the chain. I imagine most people would just shrug their shoulders, cut the pads and move on... I'm not most people. I'll keep searching for the correct pad or wait if I have to. This is my personal machine that will be used in the creation of my homestead in Montana... I'm not trying to rush and get this machine back to work as fast as possible or anything, I have the luxury of being able to wait. Plus cutting an inch off the inside of a perfectly good pad 74 times over seems a bit silly and a huge waste of time, money and resources... but it is definitely an option for those needing to get back to work.

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Al Swearengen
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Al Swearengen » Tue May 18, 2021 6:25 pm

[/quote]I don't like the idea of having uneven overhang of pad relative to the center of the chain.
[/quote]

Oh, I was thinking cut to exact size you were looking for. I couldn't find ANY new shoes for mine with relief holes cut, so I had them plasma cut the trap holes. Works great for me! No more BANG when it jumps the sprocket from snow build up. That $hit drove me crazy!
'99 450G 6-Way

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed May 19, 2021 6:01 am

I'll likely wait for the right pads or modify the bolt holes in my current pads to fit the 9/16" hardware. I do appreciate (truly) any and all suggestions and comments regarding this build. Multiple suggestions and opinions make for multiple solutions to problems and as every single person on this forum knows, there's no shortage of difficultly when it comes to troubleshooting, repairs, or even maintenance/adjustments on these aging machines.

Al, what exactly do you mean when you talk about relief holes and "BANG" when it jumps the sprocket from snow? Was snow building up inside the link and making your track skip teeth on the sprocket and you drilled holes in the shoes as a clean-out of sorts? How big of a hole did you have them cut, how many per pad and where? On my land in Montana I'll be dealing with 7+ feet of snow all winter long as I'll be living in the mountains, likely using my crawler to plow, to one extent or the other, would be good info. Send a pic if you can...

cordlesscarpenter@gmail.com

boaterri
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by boaterri » Wed May 19, 2021 3:27 pm

No, as a novice, I wrote a check.....

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Wed May 19, 2021 4:10 pm

boaterri wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 3:27 pm
No, as a novice, I wrote a check.....
Ouch boaterri, from my experience, the more you buy from big suppliers, the more they will negotiate; as a loyal repeat customer or size of one order, such as an entire undercarriage. Every single place I have spoken with for parts over the past few years in dealing with a 5 different machines has come down on their pricing to make the deal... way down on the bigger orders.
Last edited by cordlesscarpenter on Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Al Swearengen
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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Al Swearengen » Wed May 19, 2021 6:28 pm

cordlesscarpenter wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 6:01 am

Al, what exactly do you mean when you talk about relief holes and "BANG" when it jumps the sprocket from snow? Was snow building up inside the link and making your track skip teeth on the sprocket and you drilled holes in the shoes as a clean-out of sorts? How big of a hole did you have them cut, how many per pad and where? On my land in Montana I'll be dealing with 7+ feet of snow all winter long as I'll be living in the mountains, likely using my crawler to plow, to one extent or the other, would be good info. Send a pic if you can...

cordlesscarpenter@gmail.com
Snow packs really hard between sprocket and bottom of shoe. When the snow and temps are right, it's REALLY bad. Makes you cringe every time it happens. Just one trapezoidal (sp?) hole between the bolts (tip of sprocket) makes all the difference in the world. I'll get a pic when I get a chance. Sounds like you will no doubt be in the market.
'99 450G 6-Way

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:27 pm

Update:

After much deliberation I pulled the trigger, ordered the SALT chain, new track pads, lower rollers, upper carrier and front idler for both sides ($$ ouch! $$) buy once, cry once right? I'm having the pads sent separately and have a fab shop lined up to water jet clean-out holes in the middle (THANKS AL!). Got the battery box and Hyd box removed yesterday and popped the cover on the right steering clutch housing :shock: , let's just say I'm very glad I had already intended to pull all the guts out and rebuild everything in there before I opened the compartment or I would have puked MY guys out.

Let me ask you all... when it comes to rebuilding the clutches, I'm looking at getting the kit that comes with all the disks, new throwout bearing, new pressure plate and new brake bands but I thought I remembered reading somewhere on here that they make a "better" disk now a days than the old fiberous ones that came stock on them that don't have the same swelling/corrosion issues that plague the dry clutch machines. How would I know I was getting the newer/better clutch plates? What are they made of? I basically need the whole skinny on these so I know I'm ordering the best clutch pack I can, lord knows I don't want to have to do this again, EVER, or at least not in the near future.

The next step is pulling the finals to rebuild them and in the process, pull the pinion shaft so I can rig the clutches out and begin rebuilding them. I'll have to do some digging researching the power steering on this machine because my 450 straight doesn't have this feature and I know very little about how it intertwines with the steering. Any insight from experience to this would be awesome!

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Jim B » Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:53 pm

New undercarriage and tracks will last you along time and you won't regret it.

For your steering clutch parts, I suggest you contact Lavoy. http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... =3&t=13779 . There is experience behind what he sells.

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:04 am

As you can imagine, finding parts is the hardest part of a restoration, especially like this one that was in a fire and sat in a creek for a year. Does anyone out there know of a good source that can provide all the oddball parts? I still have a list of like 70 parts I need and everywhere I go, they only seem to want to help with a few specific items and they blow off the rest, even the so called "one-stop-shop" equipment places I've been dealing with. Things like a flip up seat bracket for a 93 series A backhoe attachment is dang near impossible. Undercarriage... easy, engine...sorta easy, finals... easy, everything else... PITA. I've just barely started my search for 450/450B/450C "part outs" in salvage yards but if anyone knows an individual or good yard that has one or more 450s in said yard anywhere remotely near southeastern Indiana, please let me know.

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by JWB Contracting » Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:26 pm

The problem with a restoration is the hard to find parts are hard for a reason - high wear or easy break items are poor or missing on most machines. Just to have factory gauges is a tall order. So you either need to be prepared to pay or find alternatives.

I don’t sell any hard to find items as they get used up on the machines we fix for resale. Been buying every reasonable condition and priced parts machine in a 5 hour drive radius and recently went 13 hours for a machine and a half.

Had a local guy need a water pump, seat, muffler and rock guards for his machine. Out of this all we will sell is rock guards but they were more than he wanted to spend. Now that Twin Deere is out of business there is no local source for used parts. The wreckers that I’ve talked to no longer wreck anything older than a G series Crawler as not much for demand.

I wait along time to find things we need, but have the benefit of not having one machine to work on at a time.
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