'73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

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cordlesscarpenter
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'73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Mon May 10, 2021 8:24 pm

Hello all,

I've been kinda scattered here and there throughout this forum with with questions and answers to various issues on this project but have decided it's probably best to start this build thread and hopefully work through most of the challenges right here on one thread. Even if nobody jumps in on this thread during the build, my hope is that it will help others in the future.

I am in the middle of restoring a 1973, 450B Crawler Loader with 4-in-1 Drott bucket and backhoe. Unfortunately the previous owner parked it in a creek bed and went for some dinner then got a call on his way back telling him his crawler was on fire! The machine subsequently sat in that creek bed for the next 9 months until I bought it.

After the hassle of getting it hauled to my place and dragging it off the trailer with my other 450, I finally got it under cover, and sitting on jack stands on top of a slab of railroad ties. The backhoe (93 series A) has been separated from the machine and has been perfect yard art, the bucket, loader arms, hood, front cowl/grill, deck plates, fried engine, tracks, sprocket weights and sprockets have also all been pulled. The hyd lines and linkages have all been disconnected for removal of the battery box and hyd oil sump box. Once I got to this point I had to stop work on this project to do an in-frame rebuild on my other 450. Now that that fiasco is over, it's time to jump back in on the 450B. I literally just emailed a parts list to the place I've been going to for parts... hopefully my parts guy doesn't just laugh when he opens the email, there are over 50 parts on that list and many of those "parts" are whole assemblies. My hope is to buy once, cry once and get it over with.

I have already purchased the engine, it is a 4039 turbo diesel that was sourced out of a 450C that had a ton of other issues apart from the engine. They sent me a video of it running on a test stand and everything looked great, sounded great and had 65psi. They gave it some fresh paint and sent it out, it is now sitting in the corner of the shop begging to get stabbed in place.

My next step is to finish removing the box and sump so, then the final drives so I can yank the steering clutch/brake assemblies up and out, tear them down and get both the finals and clutch assemblies ready for rebuilds, new seals, bearings, clutch plates, etc. After that I'll be pulling apart the rest of the undercarriage as it is almost all getting replaced and then basically working on preparing to paint the entire project and get it ready for reassembly.

This is gonna take some time as I have never fully restored a machine like this before. I have repaired lots of heavy equipment in my day, even a few crawlers and am no newcomer to restoring parts (fab work, prep & paint) but some things will be a first for me (at least on this particular machine) such as all 3 clutch assemblies and re-creating the engine bay and everything that was roasted in the fire. There are a lot of pieces and parts that simply melted in the fire to the point where they fell off and aren't there. The good news is that I have a running straight 450 to kinda refer to for most stuff but even then there are many differences and features on the B that aren't on the straight. On the positive side, outside the engine bay area and the undercarriage, everything looks absolutely amazing (comparing to my straight 450), the skid plate is actually perfectly straight, not a single weld repair to the frame or body, and all the little things like rock guards, sprocket and counter weights, etc. are all still there. Plus I am retired, young, and healthy... a good combination giving me the time and ability to work on this every second I can until it's done.

If you've done this before on a 450B or similar and have any advice to share, please do, it will be appreciated not only by me but by those who read this thread in the future.

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Thu May 13, 2021 10:02 am

Ok, first round of questions...

I received quotes back on several major parts but am unsure of a few things...

The track chain that I was quoted is "dry chain". I know there is such a thing as a "sealed and lubricated track" (I believe most places simply abbreviate this as "SALT chain"). The chain that I pulled off of the machine has 37 vs the normal 36 links (not sure if it is "dry" or "SALT" )and my parts guy is saying that all he can locate for the 37 link is "dry". As a career engineer, I can only assume that sealed and lubricated pins and bushings will wear much more slowly, corrode less and be well worth the extra money but I am not positive??? Am I right in this assumption or is there an argument to be made in favor of dry chain?

Also, what machines come from the factory with a 4039T? I need to do my diligence to make sure I'm not overpaying.

Next, my parts guy can't do electrical components like the complete wiring harness, gauges, lights, light switch, ignition switch, ignition pushbutton, starter & alternator (which all need to be replaced because they were melted down to nothing in the fire). Does anyone have a good source for all of these components? The starter and alternator will need to be for the 4039T.

Looking into the future a bit, before I bring the hydraulics online, I need to flush the system because when I got it, hoses were open to the air and I need to make sure there is nothing in the system that isn't supposed to be there. Does anyone have any experience/advise with this?

Darrell

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by LeonardL » Sat May 15, 2021 8:09 am

Your SALT track rails can be identified by looking at the ends of the track pins. If they have a counter sunk dimple in the ends then most likely they are SALT tracks. If the pins are solid or flat across the end of the pin it will be a "Dry" track. You can also tell by looking at the pin and bushing area to see if they are real loose and appear to be open. Usually SALT tracks will be tight and the fit will have little or no looseness to them. Make sense? I'm not real good at explaining the difference.

You are also correct in that SALT tracks are the best option. They are expensive but will out last dry tracks two to one. They also let the machine work easier so there is less stress on the machine. So you save money over all. SALT tracks are also a lot quieter than dry tracks which is good on you the operator. Undercarriage accounts for eighty percent of a crawlers maintenance cost. So in the end SALT is the only way to go in my opinion.

If memory serves, your 37 links compared to 36 is also a difference between the two systems. SALT tracks bolt together at a "Master Pad" location and Dry tracks have a "Master Pin" that connects the links together. On SALT track the bolts go through the pad and connect the two ends of the rails or chains. So you will then have an extra pin and bushing at the "Master" location. So basically you have two halves of a track link which gives you the 37th pad. Dry track you are only continuing to connect the links with another pin so you end with one less link in the rail or chain.

The 4039 engine was used in several Deere applications. From Ag to Industrial. I'm not sure if Deere can tell you exactly what machines the 4039 came out in. However the good thing is, with a little bit of work you can fit a 4039 out of an Ag tractor into a an industrial crawler or vice versa.

Your electrical components are best found select salvage. Deere will have a lot of what you need but be prepared to pay a kings ransom for some of what they have. They consider their remaining stocks as "Vintage" so they ask a lot for them. There are several good salvage companies in the US and Canada that will most likely have your wiring. As for switches, alternators and starters there are aftermarket sources for those as well. You need to call Lavoy the owner of this site. He sells a lot of what you will need or will have some great sources for you to use. It will be a worth while call to make.

Your Hydraulic system will need to be disassembled and gone through. Start at the tank and work your way out from there. Most likely some components will be okay but a good disconnecting and blowing them out is your best option.

I hope this helps a bit and good luck on this project.
40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sat May 15, 2021 4:13 pm

LeonardL, thanks for the reply!

I just looked at my old chain again just to see what "was" on there... no counter sunk with dimple pin ends except for the master link. No strange half links either, so I'm guessing what's on there is 37 link "dry chain". I was always taught (which it has been true so far with the 3 crawlers I've done maintenance to regarding tracks) that the master pin is identified by the counter sunk dimple end, I never knew any other system existed (like the two half links with a master pad). Are you saying that on SALT chain, ALL pins have the counter sunk dimple ends?

The "half link" system with a "master pad" doesn't make any sense to me, to have two half links (that don't connect to one another) and all you have holding the track together is a track pad? sounds like a weak link (literally) in an assembly that can't be weak. BUT it sure sounds better than beating out master pins every time you need to break track for maintenance/repairs... maybe. I say maybe because if the track pad bolts have been in there for a long time, they can and do get seized, I've got two old tracks laying around where that is a problem (being able to remove the pad bolts). With the new track I get, it shouldn't be too big a problem since I'll be swapping between loader pads and dozer pads at least twice a year plus I'll be using anti-sieze.

I may have caught a break on the 4039 manual issue... when I google it, there are downloadable operation, service, and parts manuals which I have printed out... they have my engine model and everything, only time will tell if it pans out. I'll have to find a better solution for a true "tech" manual as there are no overhaul procedures or anything like that in the "service" manual, only maintenance schedules and performance of maintenance type procedures.

Concerning gauges, I think I'd rather have aftermarket gauges anyways since the OEM gauges would be using electronic sending units and not actual, physical readings... but the other stuff I would like to have OEM for obvious reasons, shouldn't be too hard to come by those parts.

The hyd system flush will be a real hoot for sure. I plan on replacing nearly, if not all hose on the machine and most of the hard lines have already been disconnected for removal of the hyd sump tank and battery box (for steering clutch rebuilds)... I'm wondering how I'll flush the cylinders, any ideas?

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Jim B » Sat May 15, 2021 4:54 pm

To go along with Leonard's info, I have a copy of a 450B technical manual which sheds a bit more light on this (had to look it up as I remembered something about different chain lengths from my 450E manual). It says the dozers used 36 pads and the loaders used 37 pads (450E/455E are the same, plus a long track uses 39). What does your manual call for in the specifications section? The parts catalog shows 36 links plus a master link for a loader. 35 links plus a master link for the dozers.

The 4039 was sold to a number of different manufacturers as and used in a lot of air compressor, generator, and stationary applications as well. We have a 2030 ag tractor that has had a 4039 swapped into it. The plate at the rear of the block from the tractor had to be used as the compressor, or whatever, that had been mated to it used a different rear plate. I don't have all the specifics, but my understanding is several other components from the tractor's original 4219 had to be swapped to the 4039. If you have one that was already in a 450 dozer the swaps have likely been made. If done right you will have a good increase in power.

As for the manuals JD seems to be heading down the road of having a number of component manuals, as they have gotten into selling engines and such to other manufacturers, needed to go along with the machine overall technical manuals.

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sat May 15, 2021 5:55 pm

As far as what my manual says about the tracks, I can't trust it because I'm not sure my books are correct, they have pages that have print dates from 1970, 71, 72, 73 and 74... my machine is a '73, is this normal for different pages in the same book to be printed from 5 different years? The pictures of the machine in the manual look different from my actual machine too. My owners manual matches perfectly (but is no help).

Thankfully, the 4039T I got was indeed from another crawler (JD 450C) that had a bunch of other problems but motor was in great shape. The rear plate has been swapped already and everything else looks like it will fit up with little to no issues. The intake plumbing might get interesting because it's a turbo but I have to recreate the ENTIRE intake system (roached in the engine fire) so that's all expected challenges. I never ran this particular machine so I don't know what kind of power it had before and my other 450 is a straight 450 with a 4202... needless to say I'm very much looking forward to the HUGE increase in power between the 4202 (NA) and the 4039 (turbo).

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Jim B » Sat May 15, 2021 6:21 pm

There is a copy of TM1033 for the 450B on line at https://archive.org/details/John_Deere_ ... al_TM1033 you can compare to your manual.

It is possible to have different dates on pages. They didn't change the dates on pages they did not change as they updated manual info.

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sun May 16, 2021 2:26 pm

Thanks for the link Jim! There are some differences but nothing major and mainly due to the electronic version likely being the latest version with pages from the 1980's. I guess I'm good with mine since it has printing dates in 1974... (new enough for my machine anyways but obviously not original books to a 1973 machine).

At least I now have a 2nd resource to bounce info I can't find or doesn't make sense.

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by LeonardL » Mon May 17, 2021 8:23 am

Okay I will try and explain the half links a little better. Your two halves mate together and are linear to each other. Not side by side like the two halves of a standard link. This isn't two sides coming together rather you have a top and a bottom. As a result you can but not always have an extra pin and bushing because of this. I was only surmising that may be how you were coming up with 37 pads. We always just used the same tracks on both dozers and loaders so Jim was cool in digging that info out. I never had time to care. I just mounted the damn things and moved on to the next machine.

Moving on...The bottom half is drilled and threaded to accept the bolts that come through the pad and then also through the top half of the link that comes down on top of the bottom half. The two halves are also serrated with matching teeth that help the two halves bite together as they are bolted solid. Some tracks I've seen have the two halves made like hooks with one side hooking together with the other. Again they are then drilled so that the pad, bolts and link all come together to make a solid link.

If I could ever get a picture on here I would post pictures. In all of my attempts at getting pictures to load on here has failed. Too damn stupid!! You can however "Google" "Bolt Together Dozer Track Chain" and there are several example pictures.

Your track pins on a dry chain will be flat on the ends with the exception of the master pin which will have the dimples to identify them as you found. SALT track usually "But not always" have counter sunk ends on the pins. Cut deeper than the dimple you see on a dry master pin.

I hope this clarifies things a bit and good luck.
40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Mon May 17, 2021 8:56 am

Leonard, that was not only an awesome explanation but the google link made everything come together! I see perfectly clear now, both how the master link comes together (like a complex, bolted together scarf joint of sorts) as well as the big dimple identifier of SALT.
Last edited by cordlesscarpenter on Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by Al Swearengen » Mon May 17, 2021 9:05 am

cordlesscarpenter wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 8:56 am
Do you or anyone else know of a better, cheaper source for track chain and other undercarriage parts? I'm looking at replacing almost the entire undercarriage on this project :cry:
Try these folks. They did me well.

https://www.tracksnteeth.com/
'99 450G 6-Way

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Mon May 17, 2021 11:58 am

Thanks Al, I got ahold of them and they are working on a quote for me.

Everyone seems to be having a hard time finding 13-1/2"-14" wide track pads. I'm assuming all the dozers are good with the 16" pads but if I tried putting 16" wide pads on either one of my loaders, the loader arms would not fit between them...they only like an inch away as it is.

Lowest quotes on chain for the 450B so far: SALT $1,216 ea and $903 ea for dry chain. $626 is a hefty difference but if they last twice as long, then this would likely be the last set of chains I'll ever put on it in my lifetime... unless I start using it to make money on the side, even then, if it really does last twice as long as dry chain then I'm still saving money in the long run. Not to mention the ass pain involved with changing an undercarriage.

So far, it looks like SALT chain is only available in the 9/16" hardware version (no 1/2" version can be found) which means I will be sitting in front of a drill press all day long drilling 296 holes if I decide to run with SALT as both of my old sets of tracks (4 chains off 2 different machines) have 1/2" hardware on dry chain.

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Mon May 17, 2021 12:00 pm

[/quote]Try these folks. They did me well.

https://www.tracksnteeth.com/
[/quote]

Did you buy SALT for a 450 from them? Do you remember how much they ran?

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by boaterri » Mon May 17, 2021 1:47 pm

I just did a complete undercarriage rebuild on my JD450C trackloader. You might try these folks, they had all the parts I needed in stock. If you give them a part number, odds are they have it even if it is not on the web site.

https://www.brokentractor.com/c/john-deere-dozer-parts/

Rick

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Re: '73 - 450B Crawler/Loader/Hoe Restoration

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Mon May 17, 2021 4:54 pm

boaterri wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 1:47 pm
I just did a complete undercarriage rebuild on my JD450C trackloader. You might try these folks, they had all the parts I needed in stock. If you give them a part number, odds are they have it even if it is not on the web site.

https://www.brokentractor.com/c/john-deere-dozer-parts/

Rick
Thanks for the link Boaterri, I looked them up and their pricing is way higher than what I've been quoted already from 3 different places. Did they work with you on the price since you were doing the entire undercarriage?
Last edited by cordlesscarpenter on Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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