450B steering problem

[polemidis]

Hello guys, my 1st post here. I just bought my 1st dozer. I cannot find the serial of the machine (only the engine serial) but it has the 450B painted so I assume it is the 450B.
I read most of the forum about steering problems but I am not 100% I really understand how this works, so my apologies if what I am asking has be answered before.
a) On the left side I have 2 levers. One that has the marks "1 2". One that has the "R N H L". The "2" and the "L" position do not work. I have no movement. Any ideas how to start troubleshooting this?

b) When I just move, the left handle does not affect the track. It may turn a few inches after 20ft. so its useless. However when I am pushing dirt, if I pull the left lever the left track stops.
The right handle works fine (or I think so). I noticed that when I am reversing it works A LOT better. It brakes immediate and requires a lot less pulling force. I also noticed that after 1-2 hours of pushing, the right lever needs a ton of force, to a point that my shoulder gets shore in order to turn when I am moving forward. Braking while reversing is not that bad, but still its a lot worse that when the machine is cold.

c) I do not know if its useful info but the brake on my right foot barely works. I feel some resistance at the very end of the travel.

My understanding is that the steering levers 1st apply some brake, and then declutch the tracks from the engine? This is what I got from reading other answers. Is that correct?

Any ideas what is most likely the problem with steering? Looks like an adjustment issue, or a messy rebuilt?
The gearbox(transmission??) is not as important to me right now, but if it could be an easy fix, I would like to try.
Also, any ideas on how to find the year my machine is? I would like to get the manual. The seller said it was 1972, but he told me so many lies, I cannot trust him anymore

Thank you for your time!

[Jim B]

Welcome to the board.

The crawler serial number is what the charts giving serial number to build year are based on, so without the serial number, chances of pinning the build year down are slim. Look on the panel below the seat, about behind where your right calf would be and see if there are two 1/8" holes (about 3 inches apart there. That is where the serial number tag was on straight 450s and 450Bs serial number up to and including 142199. Starting with 450B, serial number 142200, the tag was on the front panel of the battery box, do you see two 1/8" holes there. Some have said they found the number stamped in the front of the battery box under where the tag would have been and others have reported stampings on the top of the transmission case near the differential area. Those were hit or miss, not common practice by JD it seems.

The steering levers first disengage the clutch, then apply the brake; not brake first. The foot brake pedal applies both brakes, for stopping not steering, when properly adjusted. Adjustments may help with your problems or it may take major work. To me your current description leans toward major work. When you pull a steering lever the opposite track has to drive the machine. So if it doesn't turn left when you pull the left lever, there is a problem with the right side drive system. Dry steering clutches and brakes with oil or grease on them will not work properly and will require overhaul, if that is the problem.

I think things need to be better ID'd to best help you, even to get the right manuals (every series of the 450s had different manuals). Things like does it have power assist steering, dry or wet steering clutches and brakes (most were dry clutches and brakes but some late production Bs had wet ones, it makes a difference). For right now there is a 450B technical manual on line at https://archive.org/details/John_Deere_ ... ual_TM1033 . You can click that link to go to that manual. Studying it and comparing it to yours may help you better tell us how your crawler is equipped and you can see if thing on your 450B match what the manual describes.

Post back with where you find the rivet holes for the serial number tag and how things compare to what you find comparing to the manual, it may help. Also add your general location to your profile. There might be someone on here near by who would be willing to take a look and help you ID things.

[polemidis]

Thank you for your reply. The only numbers in a tag is the engine serial number *T04219T109217 and another number below 4219TT002. I do not know if these are helpful.
The other thing I can see on the frame at the back is a "T207-07T-L" at the left and a "T207-06T-R" at the right.

The manual model looks like my dozer. I wonder if the differences between the year models are minor.


I wonder if the left clutch is stuck or not. The left track stops only if I pull the left lever AND I am pushing some dirt. Does that say something?

[B Town]

Hello Sir,

Jim B is correct.

“So if it doesn't turn left when you pull the left lever, there is a problem with the right side drive system. “

When you pull the left lever, there is a cascade of events starting with disengagement of the left steering clutch pack. And if you continue to pull back further the brake band is engaged. Meanwhile, the right side should continue to power/push. Soooo… if you are pushing with the crawler and you pull the left lever and the crawler stops, the right sided clutch pack is slipping.

HTH, Bruce

[polemidis]

I think I didn;'t make myself clear. When I pull the left lever, the dozer continues to go straight, nothing disengages. So I think its is safe to assume that the left clutch is stuck? It also does not bog the engine down, so I also assume that the left brake is not braking.

I think I will start taking everything apart....

[B Town]

The left clutch is disengaging as evidenced by it stopping when you pull the steering lever while pushing dirt. Your left steering brake is severely out of adjustment or not operational . Use your manuals a do a proper adjustment.

[polemidis]

The left clutch is disengaging as evidenced by it stopping when you pull the steering lever while pushing dirt. Your left steering brake is severely out of adjustment or not operational . Use your manuals a do a proper adjustment.

Thanks man! I guess that these are good news. I started today to read the manual in detail. So even if the steering clutch is engaged there is still some power transmitted?


The "bad" news is that at this moment I have removed the tank, the battery box at the left, and I need to remove a few more bolts to remove the right side. Since I have issues with the Low and #2 gears (they do not engage at all) I am curious to see if it is a minor issue that I can fix.

A weird thing id that the left steering clutch department smells like mineral spirits....

[B Town]

“A weird thing id that the left steering clutch department smells like mineral spirits....”


Not weird, starting to make sense. The most likely scenario is that the left case was contaminated with oil and someone’s driveway rebuild was to drain the oil and flush with some spirits of some sort. This will not give a long successful solution. It will led to a tear down and rebuild. I’m certain you B series steering case is to be dry.

[polemidis]

“A weird thing id that the left steering clutch department smells like mineral spirits....”


Not weird, starting to make sense. The most likely scenario is that the left case was contaminated with oil and someone’s driveway rebuild was to drain the oil and flush with some spirits of some sort. This will not give a long successful solution. It will led to a tear down and rebuild. I’m certain you B series steering case is to be dry.

Nice insight. Makes sense to me. So, right now I adjusted the steering clutch/brakes according to the manual. The left (the problematic one) was waayyy out. The right was a little less. Which may make sense since the right one was working great when I was reversing, not so great but still functional on forward, but was getting worse to a point that it would not working at all on forward when the machine was getting hot.
Also, the foot brake does not go flat now, it looks like it actually has something to push against.

I am temped to put everything together and see in action, if it really breaks both sides, but since I have removed so many things, I will open the H-L-R compartment to see if I can see why the "Low" and the #2 gears are not engaging. The manual does not say anything about that specific problem and the H-L-R part of the manual is huge. Most likely I will have no idea what to look for.
I am actually wondering if I could take the transmission off the dozer and take it to a shop???

[polemidis]

My dozer is up and running again. Both brake/clutch adjustments were off, especially the right one.
Thank you everybody for your comments and for the manual!! I couldn't be able to fix these issues without your help!