new to the 450c crawler need help died and won't crank?

[Mikesloud]

Hi there guys
I just joined the forum I'm a newbie. I need some help from you guys that are maybe experts or know a little more about it than I do. I was using my tractor the 4th time actually working it,backhoe and loading dirt, always.seems to drive great. I was loading dirt yesterday on my land and it has a full bucket of dirt in it and it died on me so I started ii and started for a second,then died again and now now I cannot get it to start at all. I don't know if there's a neutral safety gone bad, or another wire gremlin to check or what wiring to check what wiring to check 1st or how I can try to jump start it If there is a safety or Illinois I turn to keyboard I turned to keep forward press the button wiggle the neutral. battery is full, and thought ran out of fuel, some gauges don't work. I think it's a 1980 450 loader/backhoe, possibly 1982. just bought , motor was replaced about 4 years ago, it started raining and hailing so I had to get out quick and leave it as is. didn't have time to check other things. it's always started up great, very confused!!
gonna go back this weekend to it and start troubleshooting,
maybe mice ate some wires, or something.
wanted some advice on what to try next or bypass anything to see if starts.
thank you so much, hopefully someone has some insight to try or experience it.

[B Town]

Welcome to the Crawler board.

For my clarification, the motor will not turn over when you have the key “on” and you push the start button?

Your comment about it dying the restarting and dying again; makes me think it is fuel starved. Fuel tank vent is plugged(mud dobbers filled it full), fuel supply line is plugged, fuel filter plugged, bad governor ring in the fuel injection pump, one way return valve plugged at the injection pump.

Best regards, Bruce

[Mikesloud]

it was medium throttle with bucket in air , as I just lifted it, been using it about 1.6 hrs, and as I lifted it , it died, restarted it ran for about 4 seconds then died again, I figured it might be out of fuel. so ran down the street to get 8 gallons , put in and tried to start again and nothing no crank, acts same way as if not in neutral. but was, got me wondering if it was something else made it die, may not even needed fuel. I just thought to try. I don't know what to try next. if something electric could have killed it,
thank you for responding. just need some clues, if there is any solenoids or relays stops it from running. to try if they went bad.

[B Town]

No relays, no ECM’s etc. only one solenoid

Only elecs are battery, starter, alternator and fuel shut-off solenoid. When you cycle the key from on to off to on, you should hear and feel the fuel shut-off opening and closing at the injection pump. You could also use a multi-meter or test light to confirm power to the solenoid.

Neutral safety going bad would not have killed the engine. But if the switch is bad, it would prevent the engine turning over. The switch is on the left side of the machine, about 3/4 the way back on the transmission, under the left floor board.

Curious, when you opened the fuel tank to put the 8 gallons of fuel in, did you notice or hear anything suspicious?

[Mikesloud]

no , didn't notice anything in tank when puttingfuel in, like what to check in ?

[B Town]

If the vent is plugged, when you open the fuel cap, sometimes there is a sucking vacuum for a second. Some will leave the cap loose to vent and finish working until they can get to the shop and properly open the vent. In a sense you have relieved the fuel starvation. The small mechanical transfer pump (on the right side towards the front of the engine) cannot overcome the lack of a vent. Just one scenario of many. If you do this, be careful not to lose the cap! I may have been guilty of that years ago.

Bruce

[DrLoch]

Sounds like he doesn't have power at the dash/circuit breaker. You'll need a test light at the very least.
Battery is good?
You have power to the starter solenoid with the switch on?
turn ignition switch on, hear a click? Check for power at the injection pump solenoid.
If you don have power at the injection pump solenoid you'll need to pull the dash to see if have power at the dash. Circuit breaker could have taken a dump, rodent ate a wire..

[Rustymetal]

Possibly a loss of power to ignition switch which would not let engine turn over or pickup the coil in the injector pump I’m not 100% sure but that feed to switch may come directly off of the big terminal on the starter motor.

[Mikesloud]

guy thank you so much, it is a privilege to have some help and input or thoughts, this is what i need to go friday to try to troubleshoot. battery is good ,and i will check what you said. any pics of what i might be testing with my multimeter. ?
any other ideas so i can try and pics of what i will look for?

[Jim B]

It might be worth measuring how much fuel is in the tank. If it did run out of fuel, and you tried to restart it at least once and it caught and died again, it is very unlikely that just dumping 8 gallons of fuel in will restart it unless you did a full system bleed. You don't mention doing that. Did you bleed the fuel system after adding the fuel to the tank, so you are sure it has fuel to the injection pump? You should check to see if you have clear fuel at the inlet of the injection pump when you hand pump the transfer pump. Not knowing the condition of the tank, you might need to change the fuel filter if it ran out. Some of them had a screen in the tank in the line going to the transfer pump which might be restricted now if the tank was run dry. Just a few other thoughts.
Jim

[LeonardL]

I highly recommend you buy a Tech Manual for your crawler. All of the questions you have attempted to ask will be answered inside the contents of a Tech Manual. Complete with pictures. Buy it from Deere. Once you buy it, then take the time to read it and familiarize yourself with it.

[Buckhorn]

Sounds electrical if the starter won't crank.
Found this on this forum. Looks like there's a safety switch, and a neutral switch.

http://jdcrawlers.lcent.com:8000/johnde ... CN0093.JPG

[Jim B]

After reading through all this again and disregarding the adding fuel, yes it is an electrical problem if the starter does not engage/turn. I was looking at the died then restarted part which would sound like out of fuel and the filters running dry.

First, Is the bucket on the ground now? Please don't work under it if the boom is not properly supported to prevent dropping, and the bucket is secured from moving, especially if there is still material in the bucket.

As B Town posted it has a neutral switch. I'm sure you tried wiggling the shift levers to see if the adjustment is off a bit. (You need to watch the linkage for wear so neutral stays in the slot that physically locks the lever in neutral for safety.) I don't know of, or see any other safety switch in the 450B or 450E wiring diagrams (I don't have the C or D manuals). I think they are the same but I won't say with 100% certainty there is nothing different with yours. Even though several models may have the similar diagrams having the correct wiring diagrams in the correct manuals can be a big time saver.

I have seen batteries fail internally, so don't rule the battery out, it needs to be checked. I parked my pick up one day after a trip and needed to go somewhere about 15 minutes later; no go, dead. The battery had failed just like that. While you check batteries and cables, if it has a battery master switch inside the battery box, check that switch, I have seen those fail. You can put the cables on one terminal of the switch to bypass it if needed.

If you can reach them wiggle/ unplug and plug in the wiring harness bulkhead connectors. Check for loose wires on the starter.

I second what Leonard L said about getting the Technical Manual (I'll add get the Operator's Manual as well) for your machine. You can use the online John Deere parts catalogs to save buying one of those. You can print off the pages you need from there. Your serial number will give you the year, if you go to the posting of 450 serial numbers on the FAQ Board. If you contact Lavoy he may be able to help you with the right manuals from his store.

[Mikesloud]

thank you guys again, i was worried it could be something else, since new to these tractors and these old gauges dont work unless you beat them , bang on them and still ony one ever read half descent, way was oil pressure, when it happened it scared me,lol like i blew the engine or something!! lol overheated it or something! i didnt have any other signs of failure so how was i supposed to know !! surely these tractors are tougher than that !! lol only used about a 1.5 hours just back hoeing a little 3 ft hill and about 5 buckets of dirt! so surely that couldnt be a issue, im going to try to get some type of new gauges so it can be reliable, but i hope its a electrical problem.

[Mikesloud]

i bought the complete operation and service manual about 2 weeks ago, but didnt have with me onsite, will look into it , but wanted some honest experience answers that may say it has common faults in a certain degree. lol