450C project and needing assistance

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78turbo
40C crawler
40C crawler
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Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:31 am
Location: Mossyrock, Washington

450C project and needing assistance

Post by 78turbo » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:09 pm

Hello everyone. I just bought a basket case of a 450C for a decent price and would like to get some opinions from those with way more knowledge. I have put about 2-3 hours on it to determine how bad it really is, and what needs to be addressed first. It appears that the engine is going to need to come out for multiple reasons. First is the clutch that has no fingers left on the pressure plate and the second is the engine getting coolant into the oil from being overheated I assume. Must be why the aftermarket gauge was broken at 280 degrees. I have not disassembled the engine yet to see where the problem lies, however I am concerned about block cracks with the 4219’s as mentioned here and elsewhere. There are a few 4239’s that I have found online in both D and T configuration but they come from light duty equipment. Are these a viable option, or are they considered too weak of block construction? I found a few 4039’s also, but it appears that these will not work?? Are there some variations that will work without heavy modifications?
I am sure that I will have many more questions as I continue into this project. Is there going to be any “required” special tools for engine replacement? I did get the TM1102 manual and I have been in automotive and medium duty mechanics for 35 plus years so it shouldn’t be too bad for me to tackle. I appreciate all help and knowledge.

Jim B
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Re: 450C project and needing assistance

Post by Jim B » Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:54 am

First thing is: Have you confirmed by serial number that it is a "C" series?

cordlesscarpenter has a thread going about his 450B engine you should review. You may encounter some of the same or similar issues if you swap to a different series engine. I would advise finding out the condition of your engine before jumping to a transplant. Your block may be ok and rebuilding it will leave you with an engine you know the condition of. The swap, if you need to, that will be the easiest is staying with the same naturally aspirated 4219 series engine. 4239 naturally aspirated would be next. Adding a turbo or going to a 4276 0r 4039 increase issues.

Just because the temp gauge is broken and pegged at 280 doesn't mean the engine got that hot, it could just be a gauge failure. A 450C should have an engine oil cooler right below the oil filter, those can fail and let oil into the coolant. Just another possibility that will need to be checked.

78turbo
40C crawler
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Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:31 am
Location: Mossyrock, Washington

Re: 450C project and needing assistance

Post by 78turbo » Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:32 am

Thanks for the information. The ID tag shows 450CC 274563T. The engine tag shows 4219CT 02 418271T.

I have gone through all the posts from cordlesscarpenter and there is great information in there. I appreciate the in-depth write-up that he has done for that restoration project.
I was just looking for a backup plan if nothing else just in case I do find a junk engine. The more information I find out about who owned this, I do believe that the temp got that hot and they pulled the thermostat and continued to run it. It spins over fairly easily when starting, like there is not much compression left in it. A few shots of ether and it will come to life. I replaced all the gauges along with fabricating a new wiring harness since there were more splices than wire and most of them were burnt. The oil pressure holds at 50psi warm just above 1500rpm so I think the bottom end may be OK. The temp never gets over 120 degrees so that is an issue also. I was thinking about the oil cooler, but the pressure difference should not allow coolant into the oil while running.
I guess the next step is to roll it into the shop and start investigating how bad it is.

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
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Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: 450C project and needing assistance

Post by Jim B » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:28 am

Serial number is a 1977 450C with a 6405 blade (that's second C in the serial number).

Best bet is to check it out and keep the swap as a backup plan. Maybe you have a cylinder liner that has eroded through and is letting coolant into the base that way. Good Luck.
Jim

PNW1020D
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Re: 450C project and needing assistance

Post by PNW1020D » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:49 pm

Before tear down, pressure test the cooling system and pull the oil pan. Look for coolant passing by (drippings, etc.) the cylinder liner packings (o-rings). If nothing, then maybe simple head gasket and head rebuild.

If dripping etc. could be an in frame rebuild vs. full engine pull, etc.

78turbo
40C crawler
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Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:31 am
Location: Mossyrock, Washington

Re: 450C project and needing assistance

Post by 78turbo » Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:36 pm

Well, I decided to just pull the engine out and start a teardown to see what has failed. So far there is a blown head gasket on cylinder 4, which I assume is the most likely cause of water in the oil. I have not found any cracks in the head or the block so far. Are the block dowel pins still available, since I have one that is almost gone? I just figured it would be way easier to start with a new overhaul and know what is inside.

Since a complete overhaul is in the works, I have a thought running in my mind about cylinder sleeves. Has anyone put 239 sleeves and pistons in a 219 block? It appears that the sleeves are just a little bigger bore, but I don't know about the sealing areas.

There was nothing left of the pressure plate fingers and half the springs along with it being rusted to the disk and flywheel. Really the only reason I had to pull the engine I guess. I have a feeling this may end up as a whole machine overhaul by the time I am done.

Appreciate all the help and insight.

cordlesscarpenter
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Re: 450C project and needing assistance

Post by cordlesscarpenter » Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:18 pm

Geez, thanks for all the props gents, good to know someone is getting something out of my thread.

I'm assuming you are going ahead with the complete overhaul on your existing 4219 which is good to hear. If you find something wrong with the engine that makes it unsalvageable and you need a different engine, you could always contact the guys I sold my 4039 turbo to, I imagine they still have it. The nice thing about that engine is that it came out of a 450C so any mods that needed to be made were already made. Let me know if you end up having to go that route and I'll put you in contact with them (I even have a video of it running on a test bench and a bunch of photos of it's current state).

That's an interesting question about putting 4239 liners and pistons into your 4219, I would love to know the answer. If the height of the piston (from center of the wrist pin to the top of the head) is the same and the only difference is that the piston head is wider, then I don't see why it wouldn't work. I would imagine there might be differences between the two blocks as well but for all I know, JD used the same block and did exactly what you are considering. If the blocks are indeed the same and the liners from a 4239 actually fit into a 4219 block cylinder opening, it begs the question how durable would the thinner liner walls be compared to the thicker wall of a 4219. But then again if JD did do exactly that and it was an issue, it wouldn't have the durable reputation it has. A block designed as a 4239 might have bigger/better cooling voids/jackets than the 4219 too or other features designed into the block, I just don't know. I'm sure there is someone on here who has had both of these engines apart and has a good answer for ya.

Regarding your engine clutch pressure plate, do yourself a favor and take a look at my last post on this other thread http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... 9&start=15 concerning swapping the bolts and jam nuts to grade 8... easy and cheap insurance and a MUST in my book, originals are all junk, terrible design if you ask me, John Deere should be ashamed. And don't forget there is a gage to set that pressure plate. If you have the manuals for your machine, it's all in there.

When I first bought my current project (450B... I wish it was a 450C, ugh), my original thoughts were to quickly slap a new engine in it (since the engine caught fire), replace all the wiring, plumbing, etc... and be on my way. I got it home, did the same thing you did and looked it over real good... before I knew it I had the entire machine torn down, parts scattered to the wind and wondering how I ever let this 3-5k project turn into the monster it has become. My story is a bit different as I'm re-building the entire machine for a specific reason. If I were staying on the farm I'm at now where parts are a few internet clicks away (ha, most of the time), electricity is at my fingertips and I had all the time in the world, I would have likely taken a different path and not opted for the full on restoration.

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