350C - 3152D - Not starting

[Tjgerow]

The dozer was starting really easy in warm weather, with several weeks to a month between starts. It's now cold in southwest Virginia and the last two times it took a bit of cranking to get the engine to start, wearing the battery down on the last time I got in it running.

Today was near 50F and I wanted to get some work done. But the engine would not start. Below are the details.

1. Engine rolls over well when battery is fully charged
2. Engine oil level has been below the lower dip stick line after running for several hours. I check and top off if needed before each start.
3. Radiator fluid level does not change
4. The engine will puff black smoke and white smoke at different times when trying to cold start. As in, i push the starter button and the engine rolls over, white smoke but doesn't start. Release button and wait a minute, press button again and now black smoke that will eventually turn white.
5. The battery is a single battery, 2 years old, and loses capacity after 5 or 6 attempts at starting. It will charge back up with a battery charger and hold charge for weeks.
6. Fuel filter is new
7. Diesel fuel is a month old and is not off-road diesel. Which was a switch as i had been running off road diesel for some time in the dozer and my kioti tractor. I switched to on road diesel as the kioti didn't like the last batch of off-road stuff... Long story but i suspect the place I was buying from had some rather old or contaminated fuel. Ask the off road has definitely been used and the system should be full of on road diesel.
8. The fuel tank vent line is plugged with a bolt at the bottom of the tank. Apparently it is broken in the tank and leaks without the bolt (plug) in place. I remove the gasket under the fuel cap before using the dozer and then replace it when I'm done for the day. This keeps from building a vacuum in the fuel tank. At some point I'll look into fixing this.

Testing:
1. The solenoid on the injector pump can be heard clicking on and off when the key is turned to On and off.
2. The fuel tank is 3/4 full, on road diesel
3. Removed fuel line to inlet of injector pump and cranked engine. Fuel pulsed from the line with what I would call low pressure, it didn't spray all over or squirt more than a few inches, into a catch can. So it appears the fuel pump is working.
4. Unhooked the fuel lines to all three injectors and rolled engine over. Fuel "dripped" from the fuel lines, and it was literally drips of fuel after cranking for a few seconds. Definitely didn't appear to be any high pressure spray from the fuel lines. Maybe problem with injector pump?
5. The engine will try to run on starting fluid, but only a few sputters. I am very weary of using starting fluid and even more so after reading many a thread here about the damage to rings. Hopefully I didn't break any compression rings on the few times I've used starting fluid.
6. All testing was done with the air intake hose disconnected from the intake, so no issues with filter, etc.


Next steps:
1. Try to find tools to do a compression test
2. Get injectors tested, or replace
3. Try to determine if injector pump is the issue

So for my questions:
1. Does anyone know where to get an inexpensive compression tester and what adapter is needed for the tester? I have an automotive tester but it doesn't go high enough for diesel engines. I didn't see any diesel testers available for rent from AutoZone or advanced auto. A rental would be ideal. I'm also not sure what type of adapter to look for in a kit.

2. Should there be a "high pressure spray" of fuel from the injector fuel lines when they are disconnected from the injectors, while rolling the engine over?

3. What else should I check?
I didn't look at the fuel return line to see if it's clogged. I did read a thread about a check valve in the return line, but i don't see one on this machine.

4. I have no idea how many hours are on any of the components. The hour meter was broke when I bought the dozer. When it's running it has plenty of power and will spin the tracks when pushing trees over. Since I've owned the machine I probably have close to 50 hours on it. This is only the second time ( in a row) I've had issue starting it.

Thanks for reading if you made it this far.
- Tom

[LeonardL]

Lots of words in there for us humble hill folk!! That's okay though I would rather you tell us everything rather than not enough and we have to guess at what you are trying to say. So great job on the post.

If your engine has good cranking speed and you have fuel going to the injector pump and you have a no start condition then I suspect a couple of things. First would be to check your compression and it should be a minimum of 250 psi and really needs to be 300 or even higher for good compression. You shouldn't have more than around a 10% difference between the cylinders as well. You can find a relatively cheap compression tester on E-bay or Amazon. One good enough for what you need to know. Just make sure it comes with a Roosa Master / Stanadyne pencil type adapter.

If your compression is okay then your Injector pump is what I suspect the most. If this motor has a lot of hours on it then chances are the flex ring in the IP is toast. Look for debris behind the timing window if you haven't already. Some folks say to look for what appears to be mouse turds. If the ring is junk then the debris will be little bits of dark material. I usually put a paint strainer or a paper towel under that window to help catch whatever flows out with the fuel.

You won't get a huge spray coming out of the injector lines at the injector. It will be a pulse as the IP sends the fuel to the injector. Also a good idea to have the injectors tested. Personally I like to change them out when I have a pump rebuilt on an older engine. One with lower hours you can get by with it but I like having all good components on a pump change.

You're smart to not use starting fluid if you can get by without it. I personally have a devout hate for the stuff but I also realize it is a necessary evil. The fact you motor doesn't want to run on it is a bit troubling but it's not a good indication of anything wrong.

I would say you have one of the two things wrong. Either low compression or a bad IP or a combination of the two. Good luck and let us know what you find.

[Tjgerow]

Thanks for the information Leonard.
I'll post an update once I make some progress on testing.
Finding the adapter for the compression tester is my current challenge.

[Tjgerow]

Here's the Amazon compression tester I ordered and it should be delivered Monday. The #3 adapter looks like it will work for the pencil injectors.



The local John Deere service shop gave me a number for a diesel fuel service shop that can test the injectors and pump plus do a rebuild of the pump if necessary.

More updates to come.

-Tom

[Tjgerow]

After a week of bad weather and soaking the injectors in PB Blaster I was able to get them out and do the compression test.
The Amazon gauge kit worked well. I use the seal from an injector to put on the compression tool and then secure the tool in the block with the injector bolt and clamp.



Readings were:
#1 - 90
#2 - 230
#3 - 10

I repeated the test in each cylinder to verify the readings were consistent and they were.

Looks like I'm pulling the engine and doing a rebuild.

Any thoughts on buying a rebuilt engine vs rebuilding this engine?

I've seen rebuilt 352's online for under $4,000USD. I've rebuilt V8's and transmissions in the past so I'm fairly confident I can handle rebuilding this engine using the service manual and the wonderful resources from this site.

Time and money are always a concern. If I rebuild this engine the machine will be down for a couple months, as I don't have a lot of spare time. I also don't have a lot of spare money (the wife says I have none). So the cost of parts maybe close to the cost of buying a rebuilt engine, but save me a lot of time I don't have. The machine is used on my property for projects, so its not used to generate any income.

Thanks for any feedback on this topic
-Tom

[Lavoy]

Unless you find the crank is rough, you could do an in frame rebuild on the engine. It would save time and money, but would not do any good if the crank is too rough to run, and you would not be getting a new rear main seal.
In frame kits are reasonable, and I would probably have the head done at the same time.
Lavoy

[Tjgerow]

This is a very slow process as I have too many hobbies. However, the engine is out pictures are attached of the cylinder sleeves. Looks like a rebuild is in order. Cylinder 1 has some pretty deep vertical grooves, Cylinder 2 had the highest compression >200 and has a small burn/pit, and Cylinder 3 had basically zero compression and some large burns/pitting on the top of the liner.
I have the #3 piston out and the top two rings were stuck in the grooves on one side of the piston, where the burn/pit is on the liner. The rings would not spin in the piston grooves. At a minimum I'll need new liners, pistons and rings.

The rod bearings look good and are stamped "std", so it doesn't appear anyone had the crank turned down.

I made a few phone calls looking for rebuilt 152s and didn't find anything. A couple places had 179's long blocks for $5200 USD. From what I've read that engine size would tear up a 350C. I'd prefer to stay with the 152 and I'm pretty sure I can do a rebuild for less thank 5K. So now it's time to research the rebuild.

I have the service manual, however, are there any specific manuals for rebuilding the 3152-DT 06 s/n 461892T engine?
To have head work done and any block work, hot tanking, etc. is it ok to take to an automotive engine shop or should I be looking for a diesel/heavy equipment shop?

At a minimum I plan to have the head surfaced, valve seats touched up and guides checked. Anything specific on the head that should be taken care of, replace all the components or only certain ones like lash caps, springs, etc. since its apart? Basically looking for the main items that should be addressed since the engine is out.

Same for the long block, besides liners, pistons and rings, is there anything else that should specifically be addressed?

Basically if I can avoid a lot of costly machine work I would like to.

Thanks,
Tom

Cylinder 1 (had <100 compression):


Cylinder 2 (had the highest compression >200):


Cylinder 3 (basically zero compression, the liner is burned/pitted pretty deep):

[Tjgerow]

Does anyone have the part number for the engine service manual?

I have the service manual for the dozer, but not a specific one for the engine. The dozer manual mentions a CTM-4 manual for disassembly and assembly. That looks specific to 179 engines. I've got a 152.

Web search shows a TM for John Deere 3 and 4 cylinder engines (JD-0420-002) but there's no index shown to verify if this covers rebuilds.

I also found a Service Manual SM2080, but that looks more like a basic tune up type info, not a full rebuild guide.

Thanks
Tom

[CatD8RII]

On the older machines, the manual is a combined book with the engine info in it.

TM1115 for the 350-C should cover most everything you need. It details liner removal and installation, as well as the rotating group and cylinder head.