Looking to purchase a 450c and sell 555a

[Airman89]

Well after I was unable to get the tracks freed up or fix the other issues (low oil pressure, weak reverse, etc.) I’m selling the 555a and I’ve come across a 450c with a backhoe and front loader. The guy says he’s gone over everything, done steering clutches, no leaks, etc.

My question is, is a fully operational 450c with fresh paint worth $13,000? That’s as low as I could get him. Usually I buy the projects for cheap but this time I want something that runs as it sits.

I know on the 555a there was a lot of bad talk about the transmission and how some parts are obsolete. Are there any issues like this on the 450c or is everything still attainable?

Thanks,
Adam

[LeonardL]

Sounds okay as long as it is a good machine. You are getting a backhoe so that is always a plus. Like I tell everyone... look at the undercarriage!! I can't stress that enough. You can be out several thousand bucks just for tracks and rollers.

[njoldiron]

Make sure it is a C. A c has wet steering clutches which normally do not need to be done. A b has dry steering clutches which need to be replaced more often.

[Airman89]

Thanks for the replies guys. Yes it’s a 450c and the undercarriage looks great! The shoes aren’t real nice but that’ll be in the future. My main concern was that the pets availability is good. I think it’ll make a great machine.

[Airman89]

So no issues with the transmission on the 450c like the 555a? Tomorrow is purchase day

[Airman89]

Purchased! It looks and runs great without leaking a drop of anything. I’m trying to identify the backhoe on it. I know it reaches 14ft without being extended. Is there anything in particular I can measure or look at to see which backhoe this is? Thank you.

[Airman89]

Sorry another question.. I’ve been running it now and I have 2 things going on.

1. Reverse seems to really put a strain on the engine. It moves right through it but there is a substantial difference than when going in forward. Is this normal? No slipping or loss of power just engine really bogs.

2. Left stick is very hard to pull and it’s all or nothing when steering. Right stick is very free and I can make slight turns easily. The guy I got it from had just redone the left side because when he got it, it wouldn’t steer left. Is this as simple as an adjustment?

Thanks,

Adam

[Jim B]

As for the steering. If it is a C series it has wet clutches. Most of the adjustments are to the steering valves, not like dry clutch machines. The brakes are self-adjusting. The adjustment procedures for both are in the technical manual. It not a just turn this adjustment.

The transmission and steering issues might be related if a brake was hanging it might be a factor. Leonard or others may be along with more thoughts on the transmission.

The technical manual (TM1102) for the 450C should have diagnostic info for the steering and transmission, that may involve pressure checks. You need to do all the steps as laid out in the manual.

[Airman89]

Thanks for the reply Jim. Yes I’ve ordered the technical manual and it should be here sometime next week. I was hoping to get a jump start on a few things so I could use the 450c some this weekend but I’m nervous to keep running it with reverse lugging the engine and yanking on the left steering lever. Looks like I’ll tackle some other maintenance items first.

The backhoe outriggers won’t lift the rear and loader won’t lift the front either. I’m thinking I have a valve bypassing some pressure. Strong lifting backhoe and loader but down pressure on outrigger, backhoe, and loader are all weak it seems.

[Airman89]

I had my manual “expedited” via email to print off. I haven’t adjusted anything yet as it’s dark out but I took a closer look and after more research it appears that the left steering clutch is stuck and won’t release. That’s why the lever is so hard to pull, I think, and it never disengages the left drive but if I pull hard enough it brakes, engine lugs some at this point.

If I repeatedly pull left brake, will it shock the clutches free? Or is there a better way? Is it possible that the brake is adjusted so tight that it engages before the clutch has a chance to disengage? When pulling that lever, it is immediate extreme resistance, there’s no slight resistance feel that I get from the other side when it disengages steering clutch. The only resistance feel that I feel is braking kind of resistance. I hope that makes some sense.

I didn’t see anything in the manual about reverse lugging the engine (or anything related to it) so I’m still at a loss as to why it lugs the engine in reverse but not in forward. If the brake was related, I would think it would happen in both Forward and Reverse, as well as maybe cause it to steer slightly.

[Airman89]

Update today

I can’t get enough free travel in the steering lever before the brake is engaging. I have a decent mechanical skillset but I can’t for the life of me follow the Technical Manual on adjusting the brakes/steering clutches. Half of it is just not articulated well enough to understand what the author is saying, compounding with the lack of illustration to see what is being referenced..

It appears that I need to take off the battery compartment and then remove the top of the steering clutch housing to measure the brake lever stop bolt correct? I tried adjusting the break stop bolt to see if it would give me more travel but it didn’t. Manual calls for 10-1/2” of travel but I only have maybe 7” until brakes are tight, other side is close to 10”. The clutch is never disengaging on the left side with 7” travel.

Like I said I adjusted the stop bolt way out and the travel in the lever didn’t change at all so it’s like the brakes are tight to the point where the lever can’t rotate to the stop bolt. I hope this makes sense. I’m not understanding how I can’t get more free travel in the steer lever.

[Jim B]

I don't have a 450C manual so I can't see how that one is worded. I agree they can be a bit hard to follow at times. One has to remember these manuals are written for JD mechanics (not the DIY market) who have training along with experience on these and similar machines. I have access to a 450B (dry steering clutches) manual and a 450E (wet clutches), I don't see the dimensions or descriptions in either of those matching your info. And that may be due the wording in your manual or to my interpretation of what is here.

What is the complete serial number of your 450C? LeonardL, or one of the fellows with a C, should see this and weigh in at some point.

Check out this thread, it might have something related. Perhaps your auto-adjuster has tightened that brake too much.

viewtopic.php?t=13913

[Airman89]

The tag number is 450CA 264978T on this one, 1977 I believe.
Thanks for the replies Jim you’ve been helpful. I’ve only worked on older equipment as far as construction equipment goes but I have a lot to learn.

It’s like I can’t adjust the left lever properly because it’s “caught” only allowing a short pull of the lever. Manual says when steering is hard to pull, adjust brake linkage but it does nothing. I believe it’s that the brake is too tight. The foot brake is also very tight and doesn’t not travel it’s full capable distance (I can only push the foot brake pedal down maybe 2 inches).

So I think you’re on to something with that forum topic. The brake adjuster has to be too tight. There was no mention of adjusting it in the Tech manual. There’s only an illustration showing that it’s there. I checked the power train section as well as the troubleshooting section. I assume if that’s the cause it should be very tight right now and I’ll have to back it off a couple turns at a time then recheck my lever travel and everything else.

I think when they replaced the clutches and brake on this side they probably didn’t adjust the adjuster or something?

I’ll report back when I attempt to adjust this.

I’m still clueless about the reverse issue. Plenty of “grip” in forward and reverse but reverse bogs as if brake it dragging but only in reverse. Maybe it’s dragging in both forward and reverse but reverse is geared different? Geared higher because in reverse you can’t push dirt? Just racking my brain.

[Jim B]

You could try backing the self-adjuster off. If the lever stop bolt wasn't set right the lever could have stroked too far, allowing the self-adjuster to over tighten the brake. If backing it off helps, I would suggest backing it off enough to do the complete steering system adjustment by the manual.

[Airman89]

You got it Jim. I have a steering lever that travels the correct distance and disengages the clutches.

But now I have something new. Not only does the reverse bog the engine but now even Low lugs the engine. I don’t understand how this could happen from slackening the brake..

Something else that is new, when I have the clutch fully depressed, engine smooth. When I let up on the clutch to “first stage” engine bogs and track tightens up, then if I let go of clutch completely, even in neutral, engine lugs down…

I didn’t touch anything besides the brake adjuster.. I didn’t touch the clutch at all. This was not happening before. When I would let go of the clutch there was a slight tug on the engine but not like this. This makes the engine lug hard enough to throw smoke out of the exhaust.

Here’s an image inside the steering clutch housing at the adjuster. There’s a ring around the teeth on the adjuster, is this normal? This doesn’t show in the tech manual illustration.
https://ibb.co/BN97WbV