450C that runs for a little bit and loses power then dies?

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RKAngel67
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450C that runs for a little bit and loses power then dies?

Post by RKAngel67 » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:09 pm

Anyone who can tell me if the fuel pump is bad or do I need to replace the fuel injector pump?
I bought this 450C that had been sitting awhile. It was in very good shape except the paint. It will run good for a little bit, then loses power and eventually dies. It doesn't want to start up immediatly, but if I let it sit a little bit, it starts up, runs a little bit and starts doing the power loss all over again. I changed out the fuel line to the tank. I emptied almost all the old fuel. I ran Seafoam cleaner through with the new diesal fuel and I even replaced the fuel filter.
It still does the same thing. Anyone have any ideas?

Blvr
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Post by Blvr » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:53 pm

I've been down this road and my trouble was the same on my straight 350. The only cheap fix you might try is to change the fuel filters if you haven't already.
It sounds exactly like what my 350 was doing and I had to rebuild the injector pump. I too changed out the fuel lines, filters and traced out any clogged lines. It cost me about $450 here in eastern Oklahoma. Make sure the if it has a manual pump that it is working and pumping through to the injector pump. It must be or it wouldn't restart after awhile.
Yours in Christ. blvr

RKAngel67
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Fuel filter

Post by RKAngel67 » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:12 pm

Thanks.
I changed out the fuel filter. When I took the lines loose, the fuel smelled more like furniture stain or paint thinner than diesel.
I wondered about the pumps. I think I will try changing out the fuel pump first before trying the injector pump. I was wondering if maybe the fuel injector wasn't able to keep the pressure up enough and that is why it was loosing power and eventually cutting off.
The cheapest fix is to hope the fuel pump and not the injector pump is the problem.

jadbf150
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Post by jadbf150 » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:01 am

hello,
I've been having the same problem with a 350 I just bought, I had the same fuel problems. I hope you have better luck than I did but Ive replaced everything but the injector pump and still have had no luck. The injector pump is getting rebuilt as we speak. I would remove the little plate on the side of the injection pump and see whats in there. When i removed mine there were hard black pieces in there. I think it was part of the governor ring. That was the deciding factor in me having the pump rebuilt. Anyways, I hope you don't have to go that far.

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Tigerhaze
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Post by Tigerhaze » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:50 am

I am probably not the person to ask about this, but I do recall some posts several months ago about deterioration of a rubber ring causing hard starting and engine dying. Digitup and others were involved in the posts and would be able to say.

Also, there were some posts talking about how critical it is to purge the air or they'll keep dying. Just some thoughts- do a search on here for posts about fuel and injectors and you'll find some more ideas.
(1) JD Straight 450 crawler dozer with manual outside blade; (2) JD 2010 diesel crawler loaders; (1) JD 2010 diesel dozer with hydraulic 6-way blade; (2) Model 50 backhoe attachments, misc. other construction equipment

digitup
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Post by digitup » Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:41 pm

When ever this happens to me I always go for that little in line filter at the fuel line entering the injector pump .My friend ordered a new injector pump as I mentioned the line filter we cleaned it and away it went .That small screen is just a last catchall before the pump so always clean it and put it back in the line .Now if it is clean then get the pump tested .Lots of people don't even know it is there but every Deere has one and should always have one .Good luck. Digitup.

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670johndeere
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Post by 670johndeere » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:09 am

digitup wrote:When ever this happens to me I always go for that little in line filter at the fuel line entering the injector pump .My friend ordered a new injector pump as I mentioned the line filter we cleaned it and away it went .That small screen is just a last catchall before the pump so always clean it and put it back in the line .Now if it is clean then get the pump tested .Lots of people don't even know it is there but every Deere has one and should always have one .Good luck. Digitup.
Would this filter being clogged cause a motor to kinda sputter. Ever since I purchased my 350B ( Apr 07 ) it has alway's seemed to have a miss, sputter, not idle very smooth. It seems to even out a bit when it is pushing pretty good under load. I've changed all the fuel filters and no change.
Diehard John Deere Man

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Farmboy
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Little screen at the tank?

Post by Farmboy » Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:24 am

Did you clean the little screen at the tank?

If you pull the valve, it is behind it, is plastic, and crews out with a large screwdriver.

I had a similar problem on my 450c and the screen was the problem.

RKAngel67
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450C losing power and then dying...

Post by RKAngel67 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:38 am

Thanks for all the information. I will check for the screen filters. I had no idea they were there and I had a mechanic come out and look at it at listen to it run and he never checked or mentioned the in line filters.
I was about to try replacing the manual pump before replacing or rebuilding the fuel injector pump. I will try your suggestions and see if that works first.
This site has been more than helpful.
Thanks everyone. I will be back in touch for more info if this doesn't work.

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:18 am

Hi,

The problem that manifests itself with these little fuel filtering screens is that the engine runs great for a minute or so, and then slowly dies out.

The reason is that the filters and screens pass a little fuel thru and wind up filling the lines and pumps and whatnot when the engine is off, which allow proper power - at first.

Since the flow is restricted, not cut off, the engine winds up pulling the fuel somewhat faster than it can flow thru the screen(s) and starts leaning out - causing a loss of power. Keep on running with the restriction(s), and the thing will quit in a minute or so, to baffle you.

The timing is related to just how blocked the screen(s) are, of course. Keep in mind that they are designed to flow only slightly more than the engine needs at full power, so it doesn't take much clogging to cause a problem.

Sometimes, the issue only shows up under full load, and not at 3/4 load. Other times at 1/2 load, and yet still other times at anything over an idle. You get the picture.

Also, keep in mind that these things 'stack up' on you. You can clean one screen and make it better yet still not fix it because you missed the other screen. Also, the screens and the canister filters 'stack up' as well, and I've found that when faced with this sort of problem to clean every danged thing - tank, screens, filters, and the lines in between them.

I've been absolutely *amazed* and the total amount of crap I've seen in fuel systems and that the thing pops *at all*, much less runs for even a minute! ;)

When I bought my JD350 so long ago I decided to change the canister filters and clean those screens, well, just because I had no idea when it was last done. Well, it was a good thing, as I don't think anyone ever changed the filters, much less cleaned those screens, and they were pretty dirty.

I then drained the tank, and got about a pound of silt out of it. I wound up cleaning everything but good, and sent the pump to the shop to make sure it had no crud in it - it did and would have worn to an unrepairable state had I not had it checked. I also wound up putting in new injectors, well, because I might as well since I'd gone so far!

That was in 1987 or so and the machine was a 1965 and I swear those filters were the ones that came on it when it was new - they were painted the same faded yellow as the rest of the machine! :(

Later!

Stan
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Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

RKAngel67
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JD 450C runs then loses power...

Post by RKAngel67 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:36 am

Well, guys, that was it.
The mechanic says he just "forgot" about that screen. We pulled out that little filter and it was full of crap. cleaned it out with some starter fluid and air and put it back in and the old girl is running strong.
Can't say how much I appreciate the advice. I had already priced out a manual fuel pump and it was gonna cost me $60 just for it. No telling what the rebuild on the fuel injector pump was gonna cost.
I guess it is back to work now. Thanks for all the help. I'm gonna be a regular on here.

digitup
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Post by digitup » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:43 am

You would be amazed the amount of $ and frustration that those two little screens cause but the thing is the they need to be there the one in the tank I have a unit to clean out the fuel tank while on the unit now after havening several of my units sabotaged with dirt stuffed in the fuel tanks .And the one on the injector pump is NOT a good reason to buy a new pump unless you have money to burn [a lot of the injector pumps have been replaced because of this ].I have some times cleaned these several times per machine and only replaced two injector pumps on all my Deeres And I have had a few of them over the years .Digitup .

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:15 pm

Hi,

Excellent! I love it when a plan comes together like this! :)

BTW, there's a similar screen that's part of the inlet fitting on the old gasser carbs, too. Causes the same grief, too! ;)

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

JerryDS
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Post by JerryDS » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:59 pm

I am having the same problem with my 450C today.... where would I find this screen/filter

Thanks

digitup
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Post by digitup » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:23 am

First check the one in the tank at the first fitting in the tank .The other one is in the last fitting leading into the injector pump Digitup.

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