Buying a 350? Some things to look out for . . . many photos

[jdemaris]

We've had some discussions on this forum in regard to 350 crawlers and possible weak spots? I can't speak for 350 crawlers everywhere in this country - but most in my area of central and northern New York state get pretty badly hammered. I worked for Deere dealers in New Jersey, northern Vermont, and here in central New York. In New Jersey, 350s seemed to last forever - mostly due to the flat land and soft clay/sandy soils. Here in New York, and Vermont, more hills and hard-pan and 350s tend not to hold up very well.

Many I find for sale now around here are worn beyond repair - at least from an economic standpoint. Here are some photos of a crawler I was paid to check for somebody a few months ago. Nice looking 350 diesel with a hydraulic six-way blade. Started good in the cold, ran good, steered well, etc. Asking price was $5000. I told the prospective buyer NOT to buy it for any more than $3000 - and even that was a high price.
I told him that for several reasons - the trans was loose against the reverser case and is almost beyond repair, the sideframes cracked, bolt holes in the steering clutch housings stripped, trackframes stripped, crossbar cracked, had a fuel injection pump that is long obsolete with no repair parts available, etc.

Well? He bought it for $5000 anyway. He got three weeks use out of it and it fell apart. Local Deere dealership told him it would cost over $10,000 to fix - i.e. not worth it. My neighbor has it now - he bought it for $2500. It's well worth that as a parts machine - not so sure about a "fixer-upper." My neighbor already has another 350 with a mechanical 6-way blade, and he bought this one mainly for the hydraulic 6-way setup.

I have to admit, it is a nice looking 350 at a glance, and it DID run good - just not for very long. The splined coupler between the reverser and transmssion is not stripped and the crawler won't move. To fix properly, would need a new trans. input shaft, a new reverser output shaft, a new coupler and stop-ring, new or good used cases on both ends - or some way to put them back in line and redowel (very hard to do). And, that's only for the reverser-trans problem.

Shortly after my neighbor got it, the injection pump started giving trouble - which is just a bad conincidence, I guess. There is no way to repair this particular pump. You can't even buy a seal-kit for it unless you find old-stock somewhere.

[Stan Disbrow]

Hi,

Thanks for the lovely photos! They'll be a big help for lots of folks, I'm sure.

I've looked at a dozen 350's down here in NC in the past year, and they've all had several of these same issues. That explains why I haven't bought one yet.

However, I know that there's a nice one out there. All I have to do is wade thru the self-moving piles of parts to find it!

Later!

Stan

[GraderDan]

I have a question about the lock washers, in some of your pictures you said there should never be lock washers used here, I hate to ask a dumb question, but why? I guess I have never been told the thinking behind this. Thanks, Dan

[jdemaris]

I have a question about the lock washers, in some of your pictures you said there should never be lock washers used here, I hate to ask a dumb question, but why? I guess I have never been told the thinking behind this. Thanks, Dan

Deere never uses lock-washers in high-stress areas and I doubt anyone else does either. The reason is - they are basically a "broken" washer" by design, i.e. they are not composed of a contiuous circle of metal, and are thusly fragile. When tightened to a high-toque, they spread - especially when loosened a few times, and often break. Once broken, you have a bolt that goes almost instantly - from tight - to loose. This happens with them all regardless of quality. In fact, in some conditions, grade 8 lock-washers break easier than grade 5.
Deere uses their own brand of thick, hardened, one-piece washers and markets them as "Torque Washers." You can buy equivalents from other places cheaper. It just happens that Deere is in the hardware business and is one of the few companies that actually makes its own hardware.

[ecostruction]

Ok, so if you find a 350 without these problems, then what to do to prevent these from occuring? Is it pointless to go down the road of a 350? Why can't the studs between the reverser and the transmission be replaced and correct washers fitted and everything re-torqued to the appropriate specs?

What is the cost of the retrofit IP? And where can you find one?

[jdemaris]

Ok, so if you find a 350 without these problems, then what to do to prevent these from occuring? Is it pointless to go down the road of a 350? Why can't the studs between the reverser and the transmission be replaced and correct washers fitted and everything re-torqued to the appropriate specs?

What is the cost of the retrofit IP? And where can you find one?

350s get in that kind of condition from being used too hard, and/or being taken apart and then . . . not put back together properly. So, if you were to find a 350 in good shape - and then took care of it and didn't abuse it - it would be fine other than normal repairs needed from normal wear.

As to the 3/4" bolts and studs that join the trans. case to the reverser case? They are adequate in size to do the job. But, once a machine is run with them loose, they pull out and the locating/centering dowells get loose. Running a machine that way is abusing it - but it gets done often.
About fixing it? Well, I guess anything mechanical that man created, can be fixed. The question is - at what level of expense is it still worth it?

If you have a 350 for example - with loose cases and shafts with stripped splines, you have this. A reverser that needs a minimum of $1200 in parts - and that's NOT for a genuine rebuild. A transmiission that needs $1000 in parts - again - just for a new shaft and not a rebuild. Then - you've got the problem of - stripped bolt holes - AND - egg-shaped locating dowels. With the stripped bolt holes - in most cases it can be fixed almost as strong as new by drilling oversize and installing thread inserts as long as it's done properly. It is very difficult to drill a straight hole that large with a hand-held 1/2" or 3/4" drill.

With the egg-shaped dowels? They must be tight - and must match both cases so when they are joined - the centerline of the reverser output shaft and the transmission input shaft are perfectly in-line. If not - the splines hammer out quickly. Due to the sizes and weight of the two cases - they are not easy to handle -and doing a repair job like this is difficult - and VERY expensive if you hire a machine shop to do it. It can be done, in a home shop if a person is skilled and innovative. The dowel holes need to be bored oversize, and then oversize dowels fitted with the cases perfectly inline. There are many other crawlers that don't have this particular problem - but all crawlers have their own particular pros and cons.

With the obsolete injection pump? Deere used to sell a change-over kit for around $1000 and it came with a brand new pump. They still sell the parts but they are all individual and the pump is now a rebuilt unit, not new. You have several options. You can find your own used injection pump somewhere - and then just buy the kit from Deere minus the pump.
Or, buy all the parts from Deere. I've done several and I buy used pumps when possible, take them apart, and "rebuild" myself. I use quotes because injection pumps are never truly rebuilt - just patched up, repaired, and recalibrated with most major parts reused, not renewed.

The one unique item needed for the change-over is the special pump adapter shft that Deere makes. It allows you to use the old timing gear inside the front of the engine - and matches it to the other style injection pump. If I had any Deere with the obsolete pump, I'd at least buy that shaft from Deere while it's still available. You never know when it will get discontinued.

If you ever see a Deere with the injection pump held on by half-circle clamps - it has the changeover kit installed. The clamps are there because the two original mounting studs coming out of the engine don't match the holes in the JDB type pump.

Here's the current list of change-over parts and prices from Deere.

AR69817 is $1639 outright, or $1439 with a good core. It is a rebuilt pump.

AR69809 pump adapter kit is $137.50

R48126 linkage rod - $59.40

AR50894 fuel line - $33.83

AR50895 fuel line $29.15

AT27615 fuel line $23.38

Here's a photo of a changeover pump installed on a Deere 152.

[ecostruction]

Thanks, that helps.

I've attached a photo of the IP for the 350 loader I referenced in another post. Looks to me like it's the changover IP even though you can't see the clamps. Very dirty obviously, but this thing runs pretty good. I'll post more info and pictures back in the other thread.

Hmm, how do you post pictures? Clicking the "Img" button doesn't do anything on my machine. Any thoughts?

[jdemaris]

Thanks, that helps.

I've attached a photo of the IP for the 350 loader I referenced in another post. Looks to me like it's the changover IP even though you can't see the clamps. Very dirty obviously, but this thing runs pretty good. I'll post more info and pictures back in the other thread.

Hmm, how do you post pictures? Clicking the "Img" button doesn't do anything on my machine. Any thoughts?

Different forums use different rules and protocols for image-posting. With this forum I put photos on a remote host - and copy and paste the IMG code here - to link to them. Other forums use HTML linking - or - host their own photos which may, or may not be done here. You'd need to ask Lavoy.

I use one of the many free photo-hosting sites - Photobucket. Once I upload a photo there, I link my message in this forum to it. It writes the code automatically for you in several versions - and you just copy the one you want and paste it into this forum. You must pick the code labelled as IMG, don't use HTML.

Here's a link of Photobucket - it's free to use. There are many others just as good. And, as I said, maybe Lavoy hosts photo here also - but I'm not up on all that.

[jdemaris]

Thanks, that helps.

I've attached a photo of the IP for the 350 loader I referenced in another post. Looks to me like it's the changover IP even though you can't see the clamps.

Just to clarify, the injection pump that parts ARE still available for is not a new pump. On Deere 350s, as well as the 1010s made earlier, the DB or JDB pumps were used and all the parts are still available. It was later that Deere used the little round C pumps that are obsolete. So, many old machines have the "good" pumps, then mid-range machines the "bad" pumps, and then after that, "good" pumps again. Same goes with many farm tractors, e.g. 1020, 2020, 2520, 3020, 4020, etc.

The first John Deere to ever use a rotary fuel injection pump was the 1010 in 1960 and that pump is one of the "good" pumps with all parts available.

These DB or JDB pumps are still made new, and variants have been used on pickup trucks, e.g. Chevy and GMC 6.2 and 6.5 diesels, Ford-IH 6.9s and 7.3 diesels , etc.

Sounds like you have a DB or JDB pump - and it may just be original. If no clamps and it's just held by two studs and nuts, it was made that way. Main weak point in that pump is a $10 piece of plastic - than can cost you $300-$500 to replace if you pay a pump-shop to do it. If you know what you're doing, it takes an hour to pull a pump apart, fix it, and put back together. Total parts cost is usually $25-$50. I've had to do many off the tailgate of a truck out in the woods somewhere.

[ronr]

Thanks for the post and pictures, very helpful. I have a 350B that I am deciding to either rebuild of sell. Leaning toward rebuild.

Concerning the front cross bar how tight are the sleeves that the bolts go through to mount the track frame supposed to fit in the bar? There are the four in the top and two on the side. My bolts are ok sleeves seem somewhat worn, but the holes in the cross bar are quite a bit larger than the od of the sleeve. It sounds like they should be pretty tight from your post. I hope the I can weld the holes up in the cross bar and rebore. I am guessing/hoping it is a a forging and will be weldable.

On a different note I was reading through some old posts and ran across the bolt loosening problem. Checked mine, reverser bottom fairly snug, one top snug other top stud stripped in trans case. Did not see anyevidence of cases chucking together as the grease/dirt build up over the joint between the cases wasn't cracked. I plan to heli coil it when I rebuild.

For the side frames the left was tight, right a bit loose and missing the middle bolt. I replaced the bolt (gr8 with case hard thick flat washer) and tightened. I was thinking of using a product called "Nord-Lock" washer in these two areas when I rebuild it. They are a set of two hardened flat washers with serrations on one side and a series of ramps that mate together on the other. The serrated side bites into the bolt head and mating member, the ramps are interlocked when tight then if the bolt starts to back out the ramps ride up on each other keeping the assembly tight. Not a very good explanation on my part, if you go to their web site it explains it much better, just click on "Products". McMaster Carr carries them and the pricing is pretty reasonable. Just a thought.

Nord Lock Site: http://www.nord-lock.com/

[KenP]

jdemaris-
I'm a big believer in having ready spares on hand for when things break. Particularly when they're 40 years old and it may take a while to find the part. So, your comments about buying the injection pump adapter shaft make sense to me.
When I went to the Deere parts site and looked at the parts in the

"AR69809 pump adapter kit is $137.50 "

there is no "shaft" of any kind shown. It shows a mounting, fuel lines, etc, but no shaft and no front gear interface parts.
Which of these part listings has the shaft for interfacing the newer pump to the front gear on a crawler that now has a "C" pump?
Thanks, KenP

[jdemaris]

there is no "shaft" of any kind shown. It shows a mounting, fuel lines, etc, but no shaft and no front gear interface parts.
Which of these part listings has the shaft for interfacing the newer pump to the front gear on a crawler that now has a "C" pump?
Thanks, KenP

Well . . . I'm not sure what the heck is going on. I've been warning people for a few years - that own Deere diesels with those pumps - to buy the shafts while available. Now - I go to the Deere database and they show the part # for that shaft as "invalid." Even worse, if I look for the standard shaft used for all the Deere engines that came originally with the common DB or JDB pump - even that shaft comes up as "invalid." That means - even if you own a 350C, a 450C, and many farm tractors - the part is now unavailable? Keep in mind that the driveshaft is designed to break whenever the pump turns a little harder than it ought to. It is designed as a sort of "fuse" with a weak spot and is supposed to snap in two when needed. So, this does't make sense to me. I hope it's a glitch in the Deere parts system. If not, it's an insult to any loyal Deere owner. There are still thousands of Deere machines being used daily in construction that need these parts. And, I'm prettty sure the driveshafts are manufactured by Deere only - to adapt Deere engines to the Stanadyne-Roosamaster pumps. I guess somebody needs to do some research on it. Maybe Stanadyne makes the shafts now? But, Stanadyne, if anything, is worse then Deere with parts support. They are the ones that made all parts unavailable for the C series pump even though it was a good unit.

If your engine has a model C type pump - it has a different timing gear inside the front of the engine that it attaches to. The conversion driveshaft - R58103 - allows the DB or JDB pump to be retrofitted to an engine with the model C type timing gear. Otherwise, the only way to do it is to pull the engine apart and change that timing gear. Even with that - you'd have to find the gear, later driveshaft, fuel injection lines, clamps, etc.

If Deere really stopped sellling these parts - then I've gotta' say, I'm pretty disgusted with the company. Up to now, their claim to fame has been great parts support.

[jdemaris]

Well . . . I'm not sure what the heck is going on. I've been warning people for a few years - that own Deere diesels with those pumps - to buy the shafts while available.

I'm replying to my own, last post to clarify a few things . . . maybe.

I'm trying to figure what Deere Company has done. I bought a new conversion shaft, by itself, less then a year ago -and now - they are not available.

I think this is what's happening. That shaft in built to snap in two when the pump turns too hard. So, it's likely that 99.9% of the times that a shaft breaks, the pump is also ruined. I suspect Deere is now only selling the shafts when you buy a new, complete pump. But, I can't tell from their parts database. If this is true, and you need to update from a Model C pump, you don't have the option of picking up a used pump somewhere, and just buying the conversion shaft from Deere.

I'm not a mind-reader and don't know for sure. And, I no longer have the luxury of picking up the phone and speaking to Deere tech-support in Syracuse, NY.

Deere shows the following pump numbers that are still available:

AR69817 is $1639.74 outright, or $200 less with good core. There is no mention of it being a remanufactured pump even though they allow $200 for a good core. ??? I don't know, maybe this is a brand new pump with the conversion shaft along with it?

AR49899 is also a DB series pump for a 152 diesel in a 350, 1020, etc. It's the ROOSA-MASTER NO. JDB331AL2405 and it’s almost the
same price. $1,613.65 or $200 less with trade-in. Does not say “remanufactured.” So, again, maybe new with shaft?

SE500558 is a remanufactured pump - from the core of the AR49899 and the price is $915 outright, or $715 with trade-in. So, it's $724 dollars cheaper, more-or-less than the other pumps and it is still available.

Anybody ever finds out for sure, I'd like to hear about it. It does seem rediculous to me, if Deere has these shafts, not to allow customers to buy them anymore. But, maybe they longer are making them and just using up what they have?

[KenP]

jdemaris-
Thanks. I very much appreciate your responses. When I pulled up the part number for the "kit", I thought I'd used the wrong number. Double checked (more than once) to be sure.
My 350 has a CBC pump. It works fine. I got the machine fairly inexpensively a month or so back and although old, it works fine overall. In fact, having dug/pulled a number of stumps in clearing some land, its probably paid for itself already. Except for the pump, it has none of the issues contained in the first part of this thread.
I suspect the CBC pump is original... I don't see any disturbed paint, etc so its been good all these years (since 1969). Most likely it will continue to be OK.
In the meantime, maybe I'll hunt down a good used one and put it on the shelf. Just in case.
Thanks again, KenP

[jdemaris]

jdemaris-
Thanks. I very much appreciate your responses. When I pulled up the part number for the "kit", I thought I'd used the wrong number. Double checked (more than once) to be sure.
My 350 has a CBC pump. It works fine. I got the machine fairly inexpensively a month or so back and although old, it works fine overall. In fact, having dug/pulled a number of stumps in clearing some land, its probably paid for itself already. Except for the pump, it has none of the issues contained in the first part of this thread.
I suspect the CBC pump is original... I don't see any disturbed paint, etc so its been good all these years (since 1969). Most likely it will continue to be OK.
In the meantime, maybe I'll hunt down a good used one and put it on the shelf. Just in case.
Thanks again, KenP

The CBC was the best of the C series. It had many updates and fixes as compared to the earlier CDC. That being said, there is virtually nothing available for it, not even seals or gaskets. The main wear item on that pump is the goose-neck throttle that has a set of rack and pinion gears inside. It wears out. I used to have a bag of new gear sets in my tool box since it was a common field-repair. Wish I had them now. If your's go bad, the pinion gear goes first. And usually, you can turn it over - i.e. 180 degrees and get a lot more use out of it.

There was nothing wrong with the little CBC pump. I think, but can't swear to it, that it was never used in any other make tractor. If so - I've never come across it. I've always wondered if it was some sort of special deal with Deere. Deere Co. was almost the first to use the Stanadyne rotary pumps, but Hercules beat them too it. The 1010 and 2010 - in 1960 are the first Deeres to have it. Back then, they were all D pumps. The little C pumps came out later, and now they are back to Ds again.

I was told a story by a Deere engineer that the C was made obsolete because of a fight between two old ladies - both part owners of Stanadyne. It's probably all nonsense, but you never know. The guy that invented the pump, Vernon Roosa, died not too long ago. The early pumps carried the name "Roosa Master" on them in reference to him. Same company makes Moen faucets and the roller lifters in Ford and GM diesel truck engines.

Farmer next door to me has a Deere 4020 that has the CBC pump and 30,000 hours on it - and the pump has never been touched. I've rebuilt the engine three times. 30,000 hours is roughly equivalent to 1.5 million miles.