450B injector pump

[Mulerider]

Our 450B requires lots of care and feeding, but the diesel usage was up due to a leak at the injector pump. It appears to be around the throttle shaft, dripping out on the block side of the shaft.
Rather than take off the pump (with the potential timing problems), it appears the upper part of the pump can be removed via three screws. Not sure what we'll see, or if the gasket will be salvageable. Any insight on this issue?

If the pump has to come off, the manual has some detail as to reinstalling with proper timing. Not sure how the #1 TDC flywheel indicator works? Remove the cover plate to observe the #1 TDC indication?
Lastly, are there rebuild kits for the injector pump? Is the number off the pump needed?

Thanks in advance,
Greg

[jdemaris]

. . . leak at the injector pump. It appears to be around the throttle shaft, dripping out on the block side of the shaft.
Rather than take off the pump (with the potential timing problems), it appears the upper part of the pump can be removed via three screws.

Once the top cover is off, you can access what is needed to remove the throttle shaft and fix the leaks. All it takes is two small o-rings and two teflon thrust washers. It's a 15 minute job to someone with experience. Otherwise, you've got to be real careful. Governor spring guide bolt must come out, the governor spring pushed to the side, then throttle shaft snap ring removed, and throttle shaft comes out one way, and throttle-shaft lock-end-cap the other way. Don't try it without repair instructions and pictures if you have NO experience. It's not a difficult job - but nothing is easy if you don't have the proper knowledge. And, there is NO gasket on the top cover - just a soft rubber seal ring.

If the pump has to come off, the manual has some detail as to reinstalling with proper timing. Not sure how the #1 TDC flywheel indicator works? Remove the cover plate to observe the #1 TDC indication?

Rotate the engine with the timing window off the pump. When the two timing lines are getting close to each other - put the flwheel timing pin into its hole and push it towards the flwheel. Then rotate the engine somemore by hand until the pin locks into the timing hole. That will be TDC and if the lines in the pump are lined up - it's TDC on the compression stroke. The timing pin is part of the engine mounting and it's at the end of a 1/2" bolt with a 3/4" wrench head. Just take it out and turn it around to use.

Lastly, are there rebuild kits for the injector pump? Is the number off the pump needed?

The part number is not needed as long as it's a D series pump. If it has the little rectangular timing window, it's a D (DB or JDB). THe little C pumps are smaller and have a circular timing port - not a rectangle. You can't buy any parts for the C pumps anyway. In regard to rebuild kits for the D pumps? What you get is a complete seal kit - and it costs $13 - $15 unless you buy it on Ebay. On Ebay, it will cost MORE since Ebay is mostly a rip-off. A seal kit does not provide all parts to rebuild a pump, just the soft parts. All other needed parts are ordered one by one ad hoc. Pump shops do not use many new parts in so-called "rebuilt pumps anyway. Most metal parts are used over again. Pumps sold as "rebuilt" are usually just patched up, resealed, and recalibrated with many used parts inside.

[Mulerider]

Excellent information, and greatly appreciated. The JD manual is often lacking in detail, with some fuzzy photocopy pics.
Lacking experience in injector pumps, but very willing to learn, where might details be found on the pumps?
It is a D-series pump, and stays "wet" enough that a rebuild or seal kit might be desirable. Would the kit include the thrust washers and O-rings for the throttle shaft? Is there sufficient clearance between the pump and block for the throttle shaft to slide out with the pump in place?

And your explanation on use of the timing pin clarifies what the manual referred to, but was not clear to me.

Always lots of questions when one owns a JD crawler....

[jdemaris]

The JD manual is often lacking in detail, with some fuzzy photocopy pics.
....

You have the wrong manual, that's all. Deere does not put detailed diesel-pump info in the individual tractor/crawler manuals. The detailed injection pump/injector manual is separate. It's still in print from Deere and also for sale cheap in photocopied form from several, on-line tractor websites. The proper Deere tech manual you need is SM-2045. It has detaled repair and specs on all the Stanadyne/Roosamaster pumps used on Deere ag. and industrial tractors from 1960 up to the 1980s. Also has repair info on the 1950s two-cylinder diesel systems. There are usually aftermarket reprints for sale for $30. That is, unless they are on Ebay - and then they will be $70-$80.

In regard to the pump seal kit - it comes with all the seals including new throttle shaft o-rings and teflon washers, a new governor dampener ring (main failure area), new umbrella shaft seals, etc.

On most Deere engines, you can get the throttle shafts out with the pump still on the engine. The shaft is actually in two pieces - and comes out from both sides in halves.

Usually, or often, a pump with normal high hours and wear will need, at the least, a new seal kit, new fuel pump vanes, and a new brass drive-end bushing. The latter is the bushing at the end of the pump where the rotating shaft-seals turn and wear a ridge into. You'd be crazy not to replace it while the pump is off.

I buy all my Stanadyne parts aftermarket now - and the parts have been fine. SPACO from Italy. I buy from US Diesel in Texas. 800-328-0037. Last prices I paid - around 6 months ago are:

JDB seal kit - Stanadyne # 24371 - Spaco U24371 $12.10
JDB brass pilot tube - Stanadyne # 16320 - Spaco U16320 $4.83
JDB pump vanes - kit 20803 - Spaco 09528 - $11

You will need one special wrench to get the pump apart. It is a six-toothed Bristol wrench. It can be bought from as a Stanadyne service part - or elsewhere. There have been several pumps shops lately sellling off new-old-stock of service tools for Deere - dirt cheap.

For example - the special wrench from Stanadyne is # 15499 . I bought several recently for $6 each. Also, the plastic timing window that Deere used to sell for checking/ajusting timing advance - #13366 - I bought a bunch for $4 each.

Keep in mind that these pumps have an automatic timing advance that increases timing advance as RPMs or load increases. Just like the distributor does on a gas engine. It wears and gets sluggish. When it does, a diesel will skip, smoke, and break up a bit at higher RPMs - especially under no-load. Deere special ordered the option on the pumps so they can be easily checked and adjusted on a running engine. One of the few companies that did this.

[Mulerider]

Parts are in, manual is purchased, ready to get the injector pump in great shape....and now the starter has a major drag, barely turning over the engine. So much for moving the crawler to the workshop.
Good battery (even tried a 2nd fully charged unit), also used jumper cables. Good connection at starter.
Such is life with "aged" heavy equipment....

[jdemaris]

Parts are in, manual is purchased, ready to get the injector pump in great shape....and now the starter has a major drag, barely turning over the engine. So much for moving the crawler to the workshop.
Good battery (even tried a 2nd fully charged unit), also used jumper cables. Good connection at starter.
Such is life with "aged" heavy equipment....

It's a pretty easy start to work on. If your lucky, it's just the contacts in the solenoid. The solenoid is a standard Delco - same as used on many GM cars and trucks. You can remove it without taking the starter off the engine. Also, it is designed with internal parts that - the first time they wear out - can be flipped over and used again. So, often you can fix with NO new parts. On the other hand, if you've got melted brush holders inside, etc. - it's a different story.

[RedDirt]

Really great material in this string of messages, thanks for that.

I was hunting for the SM-2045 manual for injector pump maintenance and found that you can dowload the .pdf file directly from the John Deere online library site for $30 at:

http://www.johndeeretechinfo.com/index. ... t_id=69722&

I've purchased other downloadable manuals from JD here and it works great. You get an adobe .pdf file you can burn to a CD and/or print out. You get it right now and there is no shipping costs.

Best,

[Tigerhaze]

Keep in mind that these pumps have an automatic timing advance that increases timing advance as RPMs or load increases. Just like the distributor does on a gas engine. It wears and gets sluggish. When it does, a diesel will skip, smoke, and break up a bit at higher RPMs - especially under no-load. Deere special ordered the option on the pumps so they can be easily checked and adjusted on a running engine. One of the few companies that did this.

I just saw this- I have a 2010 diesel that exhibits these characteristics, especially a "skip" and smoke after warm-up. However I also believe the engine is worn which could be some of the cause of the smoking.

Is there a way to differentiate between the two problems? I have been assuming it was because of a worn engine but maybe I just need to have the pump repaired.

[RedDirt]

I have similar problems on my 2010 too, along with excessive white smoke at startup. Sorry to crash the Late Model board here, but the 350 crew seems to be more involved in the injector pump issues. That is how I found this thread. I'm going to put new glow plugs in and then work on timing up the pump with one of the timing windows (need to find one if someone knows where to get a stanadyne part number 13366 timing window?)

Then the part that I think I'm going to experiement with is tweaking the advance while it's running to get rid of the white smoke. Warn me if this is foolish.

[jdemaris]

I have similar problems on my 2010 too, along with excessive white I'm going to put new glow plugs in and then work on timing up the pump with one of the timing windows (need to find one if someone knows where to get a stanadyne part number 13366 timing window?)

I've posted this link many times. I think they're starting to run out of the most popular tools, but call them and ask. All the new Stanadyne tools are 1/2 price. I was buying those windows for $5 each. I see now they are up to around $8.

http://www.thompsondiesel.com/Stanadyne.htm

[Tigerhaze]

Hi John-

Did you have any input related to the symptoms I mentioned? Do I just simply need to check timing on the injection pump to indicate timing advance wear or is there another procedure or check?

[jdemaris]

Hi John-

Did you have any input related to the symptoms I mentioned? Do I just simply need to check timing on the injection pump to indicate timing advance wear or is there another procedure or check?

The easiest way is to just pyhysically move the pump a bit (rotate the mount) to advance the timing a few degrees at a time. Trial and error. Obviously this not the same as adjusting the advance since it changes timing at all speeds. But, it still gets the timing at the best place at higher RPM - so you can see if it improves, or not. In fact, just did it with my Dodge-Cummins truck. It has run flawlessly up to a few months ago, and then one day, it started skipping, smoking, and sputtering at first start up until it got good and hot. Out of laziness and also not having a desire to start digging into the Bosch pump, I loosened the pump and rotated 1/8". It now runs like a new truck again. I assume the advance got lazy, and by turning, I made up for it. I also assume now that at cranking, it's a little more advanced than it was supposed to be. But, starts great, and runs great. Good enough for a 92 truck with 350,000 miles on it.
Another way to diagnose diesels when you have smoke and skipping - is to pull the exhuast manifold off and then start it. This way, you can see if the skipping and smoking is a general malady with the entire engine - or if you have just one or two problem-cylinders. The cylinder that skips will be blowing the smoke in most cases. If you see only one port that's smoking, and the rest are clean - you can assume it is an engine problem and NOT a pump problem. The injection pump uses one pump to serve all the cylinders via a section that routes the fuel charge to each cylinder when needed. Very rare for a pump to cause problems on just one cylinder. And in-line pump can easily do that, but not a rotary.

[Tigerhaze]

Thank you very much!