Oily Brakes and Clutches on 1970 350

bigrock · Post by **bigrock** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:29 am

Hello Folks, I just recently found this message board and wish I had found it long ago! VERY INFORMATIVE!!! I just took the final drives off of my 1970 350 to replace the oil-soaked brakes and clutches. I have read several threads that discuss this problem, but no one mentions where the oil is most likely coming from. I don’t want to put new parts on and then have them be ruined by oil too. I don’t see how the transmission is sealed from the brakes other than the o-ring on the ring gear quill. The splined axel stub doesn’t seem to be sealed inside the throw-out tube? Or is the oil more likely coming from the final drive? The local NAPA is relining the brake bands, and I am going to replace the throw-out and pilot bearings(still looking for ‘em). But I am wondering if I can clean up the metallic-type friction disks instead of replacing them as they are still in tolerance(.175). Also would like to remove the rear cover on the transmission to inspect the ring and pinion, but there is a PTO shaft coming through it. Does this shaft just slide off with the cover? Cant find it in the service manual. ANY help would be enormously appreciated. I need this baby tip top come spring to build a couple more driveways and rental cabins!

pdmech08 · Post by **pdmech08** » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:44 pm

Bigrock: The oil could be coming from one of two compartments. The final drives or the ring and pinion compartment. There is a lip seal in addition to the O-ring on the quill. The seal is located in the quill and the quill must be removed to replace seal. On the final drive you have a single lip seal at the pinion shaft behind the brake drum. You should be able to clean up the friction discs if they are of the bronze metallic type. Soak and clean them multiple times as they do absorb oil. I usually clean them a final time with either laquer thinner or enamel reducer. If the solvent comes off clean and realitivly clear, then you have removed the oil.

Post by **Lavoy** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:47 am

PTO shaft should pull right out by itself, then you can pull the back cover.
Oil is most likely coming from the pinion shaft seal, but even if it is not, put a new one in while you have the final off, and probably the bearings as well. Check the pinion shaft for grooving or pitting where the seal rides. I have throwout bearings on hand, should have the pilot too.
Lavoy

bigrock · Post by **bigrock** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:33 pm

This forum may be the best use of the internet yet!

I live in the middle of nowhere, and really have no one to ask these questions. Lavoy is downright clairvoyant. I pulled the final drive pinion shafts the other night. One was pretty wobbly and both had trashed the seals. I will be replacing the bearings, but can I just polish the shafts where the seals ride?

If not, where can I get new shafts? Also, need shim packs to set up the endplay of the final pinions and the ring gear carrier. Deere says "not available"
I still can't understand how the rear cover of the tranny comes off.

What does this shaft couple to? Does the shaft come off with the cover?

There was an odd noise emanating from the rear end when I would back up a hill especially. I suspect the ring gear. I want to take a peek at the ring and pinion set before I button everything back up. Thanks for the replies!

Post by **Lavoy** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:55 am

Okay, I was thinking PTO, that is a winch drive, it will come out when you pull the back cover off. You will need to pry on the rear cover to get it off, there will likely be a couple of dowels that hold it on as well, and it might be stuck.
Best repair for the shafts is a Redi-Sleeve, they are a stainless steel sleeve that you press on the shaft to repair it. Speedi-Sleeve is another brand name for the same product.
Lavoy

bigrock · Post by **bigrock** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:16 am

YAY!!! First of all, I got the rear cover off of the transmission. It didn’t want to let go. And I just didn’t want to go prying on it before I knew there was nothing else to detach. Everything looks swell in there after all. Nice and tight.

Meanwhile, this is an “oily clutch” repair job, so I was considering removing the ring carrier quills to replace the seals. I had found the trashed final drive pinion seals and pitted shafts earlier which were certainly leaking(NAPA is installing speedi-sleeves thanks to Lavoy’s tip

), but I didn’t really want to do the ring gear carrier job if those seals were still ok(they have only been in there for 800hrs.) I tried to think of a way to TEST the seals rather than just changing them. This is what I did. I plugged the throwout carrier tube on one side with a rubber stopper. I found a rubber boot in my rubber doodad bin(I think it is an insulator for some large alligator clamps) and put it on the other tube. I put a marble in my mouth and then sucked on the boot until the boot collapsed a bit. While holding the vacuum with my mouth, I shoved the marble into the boot with my tongue. The boot has now been holding a slight vacuum on the seals for awhile now! IF THEY WILL HOLD AIR THEY WILL HOLD OIL??? I rotated the ring gear/carrier during the test to see if that would make it leak. Still Held!!!

Feel free to tell me that I have lost my mind. I know that is already apparent by the fact that I am working on a 350, but does this look like a valid carrier seal test?

gene s · Post by **gene s** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:33 am

What you've done is truly unique, I would guess it's a good test. Good thing that marble in your mouth didn't get away on ya! Next time take a picture of you doing this highly advanced technique, it would be interesting to see!

Tigerhaze · Post by **Tigerhaze** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:38 am

Hi Bigrock-

On the surface, this seems like it could be a reasonable test, and it is certainly unique. My only concern would be if the seal would have a small leak that wouldn't be evident unless under higher pressure from the oil on the inside (or in this case, higher vaccum on the outside). I would think that you couldn't pull much vaccum solely by using your mouth.

Is there a way you can modify the balloon to accept a vacuum pump on the end? That way you could pump until you reach vaccum that approximates the oil pressure within the seal during operation.

Lavoy or one of the other mechanical experts on here could probably weigh in on that idea.Just a thought.

bigrock · Post by **bigrock** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:54 pm

Hey Guys,

I almost swallowed the damn marble twice!! ':oops:' And...uh...I'm afraid a picture of me "administering the vacuum" would imply more affection for this beast than I actually have.

Back at the ranch...The lip seals are oriented in such a way that I believe a bigger vacuum would actually assist their sealing function. I don't think the transmission has any positive pressure inside when operating, but I'm still considering new seals. I wouldn't be so hesitant about pulling the quills, but I read a horror story about getting the forks slid off of the clutch shafts(they are in the way). Probably should just get out the torch and sledge and get it over with.
This just in.....While cleaning one of the clutch hubs today I found cracks radiating out from the center and two splines that were about ready to tear off.

GRENADE!!! So I need a hub if anyone has one.

Thanks for the comments! You are some of the few folks that have any idea what I am talking about and dealing with here.

dustin502 · Post by **dustin502** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:10 pm

Bigrock, Do you have the part # for the Redi-Sleeve's you got? That would save me some time and aggervation. Thanks for your help

bigrock · Post by **bigrock** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:57 am

Dustin,
The part number for the sleeves listed on my NAPA receipt is 99175 and they were $25ea. The "175" refers to the shaft size which which was 1.75". Not sure of the Mfg. The sleeves were a bit too long though. They had to trim off an 1/8" or so after installing to stay back away from the bearing step. I suppose they chucked them up in a lathe to do that? They look sweet!!!:P

Here is a picture of my cracked clutch hub. Probably something to inspect carefully as the cracks are not glaringly apparent. Not a good thing to be flying apart either!

I beat on the clutch forks a bit the other day with no progress. I don't want to go reefing around with a portapower because I don't want to risk breaking the clutch housing. I got to looking closely at the clutch shafts, and they look like ordinary round stock? If I could just cut them out of the way with the torch and replace them, I would already be done. The forks could be forced off in a shop press at that point. So I measured the diameter and the calipers said .875ish. Close enough to 7/8" for me, so I ordered a 36"x7/8" piece of C1018 cold-rolled (enough for left and right shafts $14). Looks like the only machine-work is a couple of flat spots for the fork set screw and lever set screw? Once again I ask for the voice of wisdom here. Is there more to making the clutch shafts than cutting some rod stock to length and flatting a couple of spots? Deere wants $100 ea....not outrageous, but I'm just trying to push dirt not mine coal.

Thanks!

dustin502 · Post by **dustin502** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:54 pm

Bigrock, Thanks for the info. Looks like they done a nice job. I'll have to inspect my hubs for cracks, I wouldnt be surprised if mine were cracked too. Just about everything else is cracked , striped or busted. I bought my machine before I came across this website and didnt know what to be looking for, Wish I knew then what I know now! Thanks again.

Post by **Lavoy** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:41 pm

On the Redi-sleeve, a 99174 is the same I.D. but is shorter in OAL.
There should not be pressure in the tranny, the shift boot does not seal things up that tight.
Lavoy

bigrock · Post by **bigrock** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:04 am

SHEESH!!!! There I was spouting numbers like an expert when I had never even heard of a repair sleeve until Lavoy told me about em.
In contrition:

For repair of 1.750" (1-3/4") Diameter Shafts
.375 99172 Redi-Sleeve
.531 *99180 Redi-Sleeve
.563 99174 Redi-Sleeve
.750 99175 Redi-Sleeve
lengths and part numbers were found on page 55 of an online Timken seal guide at:
http://www.promshop.info/cataloguespdf/ ... ection.pdf

Concerning my cowpie seal test, the shifter boot was my first thought concerning pressure building in the transmission. It would need a clamp or two at least.

Anybody have any thoughts on the steering clutch fork shafts being easily made from some .875" rod stock? Man in Brown truck is bringin' it either way but I haven't torched mine yet. Any comments encouraged......hell! even snide remarks will be politely tolerated.

Post by **Lavoy** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:05 pm

I see no reason it should not work, just get everything indexed correctly.
Lavoy

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Oily Brakes and Clutches on 1970 350

Oily Brakes and Clutches on 1970 350

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