450 tutourial

[townlineterry]

A few months ago jdemaris gave us a run down on the weak points of the 350 and what to look for. Found it very informative, now I know to stay away from that model. I am looking for a 450, how about a run down on that model?

Terry

[jdemaris]

A few months ago jdemaris gave us a run down on the weak points of the 350 and what to look for. Found it very informative, now I know to stay away from that model. I am looking for a 450, how about a run down on that model?

Terry

I hope I didn't give the impression that I don't like 350s or regard them as bad machines. I was just pointing out the most "popular" areas that wear, break, and often, never get fixed correctly.

With the 450s, I can't think of much that was a weak area worth mentioning. I will mention two wear-related items that are expensive to fix, and often do undetected when sold at auction.

#1 is the HL-R powershift transmission. Very rugged and also, very expensive to work on. Often, worn HL-Rs work fine when cold, and as they heat up, come to a dead stop. With some machines, it may take an hour or running before the problem shows. Many - when they get like this - go to auction rather than private sale (where the buyer might know how to find the seller).

#2 are the twin balancing shafts at the bottom of the engine. 350s don't have them. These shafts are often overlooked when in-frame motor jobs are done. When they are worn, an engine will have good oil pressure when cold, but again - once run for an hour, oil pressure keeps dropping and often, gets down to zero at low RPM. Another popular candidate for auction sales.

[jd30series]

Terry- Hope you realize that most of what is in these forums is opinion, or past faded memories, not FACT!. The 350 is just as good a machine as any out there- (wish I owned one) most times they were used as 450's thus the increased wear and tear. Look, run, and listen, repairs are expensive even if you do them yourself!


JD'S- 1948M 1948M- 320S 320U 420T 420U 420C 330U 330S 430W 530T 630W 730SG 830DE 1530 870TLB 310D 345 445 325 110

[CatD8RII]

I think one of the things that hurt the 350s the most was that it was marketed as a cheap, bottom end crawler. So most of the outfits buying a cheap machine did cheap (or no) maintenance on them and did a half-hearted repair when the machine couldnt be operated any more. In regards to the reversers separating from the transmissions, those nuts are supposed to be tourqed to 300 lb-ft and the bolts to 425. Theyre not the most accesible bolts in the world so its not too hard to imagine why they never got tightened properly after a repair job.Might be worth mentioning the 450s mount their front crossbar to their track frames in a similar way the 350 does, they also switched to a bushing (midway through the 450A) to let the frames move a litttle bit.

[digitup2]

Most of the 350s and 450s were used as D8s at one time or an other . And any one who puts them down has to remember that as well as they couldn't find anything better back then .I have bet my money on Deere's for 37 years and skeptics won't find better today or back then just remember .A lot of those old Deere's have went through hell and retirement is almost a necessity .I am fortunate to jump in and put the newer ones into the dirty work both Bambie's and Pussy's I got both but I like my Bambie's .I hate to see the old 350s and 450s beat as hard today as back then .Sure they will take it but they may also fail to Finnish the day running or in one piece but that is just it as they get older remember take it easier on them .some day those old Deere's can be collector items if they aren't now ,New dozers have a 8 year life expectancy so if someone doesn't like the old ones give them a few years for reality to set in .Digitup.

[jdemaris]

Terry- Hope you realize that most of what is in these forums is opinion, or past faded memories, not FACT!.

Yeah, but some opinions are based on fact - the two are not mutually exclusive. An opinion, based on memory and fact can also be valid - unless you happen to be on drugs or are senile.

I can' t speak for others, but can for myself. I've worked on 350s and 450s since they first came out new. 350s were our "bread and butter" at every Deere dealership I worked at, as 1010s were before them. 450s cost more and were not the #1 choice for loggers. At the last dealership, besides our many logging and dirt-moving customers, we also had a rental fleet (for lack of a better word) of over a dozen 350C and D crawlers.

That being said, I own a few 1010s, a 350, 420, 300B, 1020, and a 300. Also work on many 350s and 450s locally - still. My comments are based on first-hand perspective from working as a Deere mechanic for an industrial and forestery dealer - as well as running my own repair shop - which is 200 feet from my house and not a "fading" memory.

I realize - and have stated many times - that when you work for a dealer - or in a repair shop - you more often seen the broken machines - and not the good running ones. We did not get many phone calls from machine owners just to tell us how good their machines were running. That being said, I worked alongside Deere engineers many times - sent to our shop to work out persistent problems in Deere equipment - ag, industrial, and forestry. Those problems were NOT anecdotal - at least not from the perspective of Deere Company.

[digitup2]

I had sales men and repair men that hated 550 series and cursed at them till they quit the dealership .I put more hours on those machines than the 450 series and also more hours on them than 350 series but I own a 350D and several 450s at this time .Deers biggest problem is the machines were built as solid as possible with no track oscillation.So after years of pounding the little dozer just shook apart .It's not rocket science if you build it solid it should stay together .It just didn't work that way eventual with enough pounding they would break some where finally when the G series came out they rubber mounted components and relieved a lot of the problems .I have noticed that there is still no oscillation of the H and J series tracks but there is just enough give that the problem should only arise after the unit is in it's old age .I had a 550H that baffled Deere mechanics and techeads [that is some where between a techie and a white head] for a year and a half the best they could do was discontinue my machine warranty .When I fixed it with a 5 minute repair of my own .They tell me I had warranty back if I told them how I fixed it .I never had that problem any more with any of my Deere dozers and they were led such a line of crap they knew better than to ask why the next three dozers were Cat's I am sure they got the message they have been a different lot since .I have dealt with Deere techeads to and they don't care!! With as many dozers as I buy they should but they don't I know . Digitup

[CatD8RII]

I agree completley about the beating the little dozers take, Digitup. Alot of it depends on the habbits of the operator. We run small Cat dozers now too. The G series that Cat has (D3-D5) use a rigid mounted undercarriage too. Weve had 2 track frames break up behind the idler (which Cat did warranty). Every one we have (9 now) has hammered out its front idler yokes and subsequently has blown out its track adjuster. The most dissapointing thing is that they have no vertical wear strips or shims on the idler itself. Cat did correct this on the new K series by using an excavator style idler track, but theres alot of Gs out there. To get a dozer that uses an oscillating bottom you need to go up to a D6K or a Deere 700J. Theyre great in that they alleviate alot of the pounding action, they do however require some attention. Pivot shaft seals can leak, and the equalizer bar pins need greased. They turn real ugly when neglected . This one is off a D6R out at the track frame to equalizer bar.

[townlineterry]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere,the info about the 450 trannies and bushings is the kind of info I need to know. Guess what I really need to know is what was the best series of the 450 and why.
Wasn't my intention to trash the 350 and upset people, but from reading the site it is obvious they had their weaknesses. I agree with digitup about people trying to get more out the dozer than they can give, see that a lot. I have a 1010 and it has served me well, but it has it's limits and I need a bigger machine for the type of jobs I am getting into now and I figure a 450 would be about the right size

Terry

[digitup2]

I have tried a 700 but didn't like them I guess I got drunk with the salesman and bought a 750C instead (':roll:').Yes the G series cats have some good points and some bad ones as you have mentioned some of the bad ones .The one thing I like about my two D5G units is the motor made for cat by Mitsubishi it is a sweet runner and good on fuel as well .We never touch them except to change oil .Deere has a good motor also but add two more cylinders and a larger water jacket and those Cats just purr all day on the same or less fuel .I would think the best used Deere 450 would be a 450G direct drive if you like them for fuel economy or a 450GTC if you like a torque converter .They are a bit more money but there's more out there that aren't all beat up .These units can take more beating as well than there older sisters can as I mentioned earlier you won't go wrong with any of Deere's G series dozers they were hard to beat for up time operation and fuel economy .They don't have computers in them as well but every thing built after dose have one .I haven't had computer problems with any of mine but for the sensor on the other end of the wire yes I have had problems with them .Digitup. :

[srs_mn]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere,the info about the 450 trannies and bushings is the kind of info I need to know. Guess what I really need to know is what was the best series of the 450 and why.
Terry

I made a living - dirt work - in the 70's and 80's with JD crawler loaders; I had 3 of them spread over 25 years; a 350, a 350C, and a 450C. The 450C was by far the best of the bunch! I did have to overhaul the engine once in the 20 years I owned it , but that was because of cavitation erosion pinholes in the cylinder liners, not because the engine was worn out... other than track wear parts, hoses, and regular maintanence stuff, it was pretty trouble free. I never had any transmission problems at all... I always used the clutch pedal when changing direction; I know they can be reversed without the clutch, but it just never seemed very smart to me... saved a lot of wear and tear on the transmission and my neck.
Before track-hoe excavators came along, crawler loaders were the basement digging machine of choice in my area, and the 450C's were one of the best at that job... in fact mine was the "do-everything" machine on the job site... I had a 4 in 1 bucket and a backhoe attachement, so it would pretty much handle everthing.
A properly cared for 450C was/is a very good machine in my opion.
srs in MN

[jdemaris]

Okay, now we're getting somewhere,the info about the 450 trannies and bushings is the kind of info I need to know. Guess what I really need to know is what was the best series of the 450 and why.

If I was looking for a 450 of any series I'd go by condition - and also make sure it's a turbo machine. Nothing wrong with the earlier non-turbos except they lack power on a relative scale. If you run a early 450 with an naturally aspirated 202 engine, and then run a 450B turbo 219 or 239 - it is a night-and-day difference in power. Many 450Bs got newer bigger engines, or old ones upped a bit in power, over the years. When Deere first offered the turbo-option on the B, it was marketed at an "altitude compensator", not a power enhancer. But, things changed. Also, the turbo engines use Keystone Plasma rings that stand up to ether starting much better then the older engines.

Back to 350s - my choice would still be condition, although I rarely come across one that's not terribly hammered. Much of my experience with 350s and 450s was with customers who bought them new and used them every day of the week. Now -the machines are old, and I suspect most are not used all that much. For years, the 350 was the #1 choice of our logger customers because it cost less. But, by the time the C series was out - the general mindset was - the 450 was worth the extra price because it held up better than the 350 - and in the long run, was cheaper.
Yes, 350s certainly tended to get abused and overused. 450s also got abused - but I guess I won't say "overused" since they held up better.

One sidenote about old machines not being used as daily users anymore. I recently found out that the power company in northern Michigan (where I own property) still uses a Deere 420 crawler for linework on a routine basis. They like it since it's easy to truck and gets into tight places.

[jgbanshee]

[/quote]


#1 is the HL-R powershift transmission. Very rugged and also, very expensive to work on. Often, worn HL-Rs work fine when cold, and as they heat up, come to a dead stop. With some machines, it may take an hour or running before the problem shows. Many - when they get like this - go to auction rather than private sale (where the buyer might know how to find the seller).quote]

What causes the HL-R trans to stop or become weak when they heat up?

[digitup2]

Multiple plate clutches need a minimum sufficient oil pressure at all times or they will slip then they warp the plates and the rest is history .Good clean oil under proper pressure or you will have problems .Digitup.