450C Crawler Loader seized engine

[tompaul]

I am very sad to have this situation, but my sweet old 450C is stuck back in the woods, with what I think is a seized motor. My mechanic thinks the same. I am trying to figure out what to do with it. I could spend about 6k it seems, to get a short block and have him put it in, or I could sell it as is to someone who wants to rebuild it, I could part it out, i just don't know. I don't have the money to rebuild it right now. Does anyone have a decent used engine that I could put in?
The rest of the machine is quite good. It turns on a dime the clutches are great, I have a fine-working backhoe attachment for it, the loader arms are straight and have no repair welds, the bucket is decent, the tranny is fine, tracks are good, etc...
I would love to get this running again, as I need a machine like this, but 6k (at least) is too much.
I also need to drag it up a long steep hill out of the woods. What kind of machine will I need to do this?
Thanks for any advice.
I am in Uster County, NY, close to Kingston.

[tuney443]

I just sent you an e-mail--saw your listing on CL.Why does your mechanic think it's seized? You said on CL it was running fine.Did you hear ungodly shrieking or any other noises before it ''seized''?

If the backhoe bucket and/or loader bucket is on the ground,obviously they will have to be raised with either another loader or backhoe,a dozer could do it in a pinch.If that hill is very steep,you would want a crawler of some sort to do double duty of pulling it out of the woods with a chain.Make sure the tranny and reverser are in Neutral and go slow.If you can't find someone in your area to do this,call me [914-464-1882] and I could help you out. I'm in Poughkeepsie,about 20 miles from you. Wayne

[tuney443]

Just to be clear,I meant to say ''You said it was running fine before the engine seized'' on CL.I don't want anyone to think you were trying to sell a bad bill of goods. Sorry for the glitch.

[tompaul]

thanks for the response. It didn't make any nasty noises, it just kind of slowed to a stop. It was under load, and the engine dropped in RPMs. I released the load and it reved back up, but only for a few seconds. It started to drop again so I cut the throttle and let it die. It will not turn over at all now, even with freshly charged batts.

I would love to think that it isn't seized. How can I tell for sure?

The bucket is down, with the teeth in the dirt. It would be impossible to tow as is. Is there something I need to do to release the hydraulic pressure when I lift the bucket with another loader, or just lift it?
The machine is on a decent incline, and I think if the bucket were raised it would roll forward, so it will have to be tied off to a tree first.

[pjaf]

I am lin Ulster also and have an engine and a 450b Call Me Paul 845 687 0190

[Stan Disbrow]

Hi,

Pull the machine out backwards, drawbar to drawbar. Then, you can let the loader bucket just drag if you can't get it chained up. You can use another crawler, even a smaller one, as tracks roll pretty darned well. I don't know if you'd have any luck with a wheel tractor unless it were a lot larger than the 450, given the far less grip of the wheels and you have a hill to contend with.

I used to live over in the Pine Plains area and have yanked dead 450's out of the woods and over hills using 420c's and 440c's, so I know it can be done.

Sounds to me like you might well have started to spin a rod bearing. They act like that - running good right until the end as the pistons and cylinders are OK. At the end it slowly loses power and quits and won't then turn over. There's no noises when this happens, as the bearing is still tight onto the crank - far too tight, actually, which is the root cause of the trouble.

I raced cars for decades and had this happen at least once per season, so I'm very familiar with the situation. Unfortunately!

The oddest part is when this happens, the engines always run quite a bit better in the ten or so minutes (we're talking racing minutes here, so on a machine it might last a lot longer) before the end comes.

I recall one race where I passed six guys in the last three or four laps because of the extra power from the loose bearings. It slowed halfway thru the final lap and I didn't even get to take the flag. Went from first to last in the last couple hundred feet. Maddening.

All the rod bearings were loose as a goose, but number three was halfway spun and that's what stopped things. It could have been nice and lasted another half a lap so I could get some purse money to then spend on the rebuild. But, no!

Anyway, I bet this is what you find. Hopefully you didn't lunch the crank. Half the time I was able to reuse the cranks, and the other half they were toast.....

later!

Stan

[tompaul]

Paul, great to hear that you have an engine. I will be calling you this morning.

Stan, that sounds right. Great and frustrating story about your last race. It sounds like the rod bearing might be it. How do I find that out most efficiently? Does that mean the engine can potentially be fixed without a total teardown? Can the pan be dropped and the bearing replaced, provided the crank isn't lunchmeat?

Does anyone have the model number of the engine or what I be looking for for a 450C?

[Stan Disbrow]

Hi,

Well, yes, you'll have to open the poor thing up and look-see.

I don't know, if this is the case, if the job is doable in-frame or not. I do know that I'd want the whole engine, in pieces, on the bench so I could eyeball everything, and measure most things, before I proceeded.

I'd probably go the way of getting another running engine ans swapping them and then mess with the dead one without any rushing.

That was how we all did our race cars. Having a spare of most things was pretty much the norm. That's not needed with crawlers, of course, but it surely does make the fixing and rebuilding a lot less stressful!

Good luck with getting out of the woods, too. I know all too well that one needs said luck with jobs like that sometimes!

later!

Stan

[tuney443]

If you spun a rod bearing,the crank will be damaged,there's no getting around that,it will need to be turned down or replaced.You definitely want to pull the engine if this is the case to work on it.It would be a nightmare to R+R that crank,along with everything else that needs to be addressed for an in-frame overhaul in a 450.Try this first though so your sure---pull the dipstick and check both for metal shavings[have a magnet ready] and an elevated oil level.Also check for the smell of diesel in the oil.

[tompaul]

got it. no in-frame engine repairs. I had some decent luck today when I saw that a neighbor was getting a new septic tank, with a big excavator doing the work. I ask the operator if he would come see my dilema. He checked with his boss, and when he finished the septic talk, ran the machine over to my place down the street, down the hill into the woods, and yanked my baby up to the driveway. out of a ditch, and up 200 yards of 20 degree incline. I don't have the money to sink into a rebuild right now, so I am probably going to sell the machine. I put it up on Craigslist for $4k with the backhoe, as is. What do people think of that price? I have seen these backhoe attachments go for $1,800 by themselves, mine is a 9300, so that means only $2,200 for the machine itself. Maybe I should sell the backhoe separately.
thanks for all. i took some pics but I don't know how to attach them to this thread.

[Flatheadyoungin]

it won't cost you anything to pull that engine and see what happened.....

heck, just pull the pan and giver her a look-see real quickly....

even if you have basic skills, drain the oil, pull the pan.....see what you think...

get some old cardboard, cut it to fit between the tracks, slide it underneath the undercarriage from the rear, slither back under there and start pulling the bolts.......

if you see something catastrophic, buttoner back up, disclose the info and sell it....

i'd start loosening rods from the crank to see if something is locked....

[tompaul]

i don't really have the time or the tools to start disassembling it right now. I could have my mechanic come do that today perhaps. Thing is, someone is coming to see it now, and I think he will offer me $3k without the backhoe attachment. He just wants it for parts. He needs the final drive for his 450C dozer. I hate to see this fine machine relegated to the parts bin, so I am asking what people think of this offer. And if I did do this, where would I go about selling the Backhoe?
Does $3k seem like a reasonable price for the loader with a non-working engine?
thanks

[tuney443]

$3K is way, way too low for that loader.I told you what to do to check to see what's going on,it will only take a few minutes.Have you done that yet?You can get $3-$5K for the hoe from this site,Heavy Equipment Forums[powered by bulletin],CL,and many more forums.Those hoe attachments always are in demand.I think you're making a big mistake though not checking to see what's wrong so that you can deal from the known, not the unknown.My $.02.

[Flatheadyoungin]

I'm going to guess that the other guy will look at the machine and if the undercarriage and the over-all appearance looks good, then he's willing to gamble on the engine......he'll take it home, most likely, and see what he can do with it.....

THEN, if he can't get it going, use it for parts or part it out on the internet.....

It sounds like you don't have the skills to do this yourself (not a knock on you at all) which means you have to pay someone= sink more money in to it.

I don't know your entire situation, but you might consider cutting and running.......or check the things that have been suggested here....

[tompaul]

well, I can't say I feel great about it, but I did it. I took $3,200 cash for the machine, in unknown condition. It is less about skills, and more about time and focus. In high school, I put a hot cam in a chevy 350 motor and squeezed it into a toyota landcruiser that became my wheelie-popping, 14 second 1/4 mile ride, so, I have the skills to work on this thing, I just don't have the time to give it. That, coupled with the fact that I really no longer need a machine like that, led me to choose the cut and run option. Bottom line is, I paid 9k for the machine, put a few hundred into hydraulic lines, and used it well for a couple of years, having a lot of fun to boot, took $3.2 K for the machine, and I get to sell the perfectly working 9300 backhoe separately. I feel ok about it, regardless of what the machine is actually worth. I did fall in love with the old piece of rusty iron. She is a thing of beauty and strength, but so be it. I am out. The sad part is, the buyer is going to grab the final drive for his dozer, with which he makes his living, so my old beast will never run as a whole again. That said, I hope her parts can help out many other 450s out there. Thanks to all and enjoy your crawlers!