What do you think of this 450B?

[satch]

Hi There,

He claims the entire undercarriage (tracks, sprockets, etc) has been replaced and has only 30-40 hrs since. He claims they spent about $11,000 getting it in great shape. I would like a 60hp or so machine with a backhoe. Only thing missing is the 4in1 bucket. Says it has been not used much the last 3 years since the big refurbish. Only thing apparently is the batteries and the clutches might need some work from sitting.
What do you think about the price? I am from Ontario, so there would be no cross-border stuff. I am looking for my first machine, so any comments or help would be very much appreciated!

http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicle ... Z240726618

[KenP]

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[digitup2]

When they come from up north I watch in castings in transmission area the bell housing bolts ,loader or blade linkage and tracks that unit doesn't look to bad at all and tracks are in nice condition .I have always said what goes to northern Ontario comes back in a scrap truck but that old Deere doesn't look to bad .Digitup.

[Jack-the-Ripper]

If you really want to go and look at this machine, bring somebody with you who knows old Deere crawlers... even if you have to pay them.
Minimize your risk as much as you can.

I second Ken's advice. I "ran into" a JD Crawler mechanic and asked him about the frozen clutches on my 450B. He explained that the B has dry clutches and linkage that are prone to freeze ups even from condensed winter moisture not to mention infiltration if the drain plugs are missing or the top access covers' gaskets are not sealing. He recommended the 450C with its oil immersed clutches and said he would have told me if I had only called him before the purchase and would have been glad to look at it (for his fee). I paid $12,000 US (in the dead of icy winter (I didn't really look it over)) and the B ran about an hour before the clutch linkage froze up and would not engage one side. (My avatar is an example of one danger of a track that doesn't fully engage.) I never noticed (a "probie" (novice) mistake) that the rails, sprockets, idlers, rollers, rock guards, adjusters were all severely worn out and there were frame cracks as well. An experienced mechanic would have caught all this immediately. It took about $7,000 in parts to get it going again and about 7 weeks of my unpaid time (including some wire brushing and painting).

Compare to my 450C dozer with rippers (the B is a dozer with winch and brush rake). I paid $13,000 and got about 5 years of tough work moving rock before eventually wearing out the tracks ($2500 in parts to repair, my labor free) that now has a slipping clutch. During that time I replaced the Hydraulic pump, rebuilt the radiator, re-plumbed the high pressure steel pipe from the front pump to the controls and replaced some hydraulic hoses - all of which I would consider routine maintenance for an old machine. Fortunately, unlike some other members, I've never had engine trouble on either machine. I don't regret the $13k for the C but paid way too much for the B in retrospect.

These tractors have been around for almost 40 years. They've done a lot of work, maybe by people who didn't care that much about damage and wear to the machine. For hobbyists with discretionary funds, these aren't bad prices for the fun and experience of having your own machine. If you really need to get a job done, buying an old machine and dealing with breakdowns can be frustrating and expensive. If you can do the repairs yourself it can be fun (and frustrating); otherwise expensive. As another member implies, tractors are a hole in which you throw money. I've certainly enjoyed the thousands I've spent on my iron more than the thousands I've lost from my retirement account.

Finally my 450B now looks great and runs and steers like a dream.

[Tigerhaze]

Satch-

One other consideration is the backhoe attachment. You mentioned that is of interest to you- you need to be aware that the boom rotary swing cylinder (the "doughnut" in the pivot area) is obselete and my understanding is parts are difficult to get for it. It also looks like there "might" be a weld near the bucket pivot but I can't tell for sure.

In inay case if you test out the backhoe and have trouble with swing cylinder responsiveness, it may be another factor to consider on price negotiation.

[tjdub]

Says it has been not used much the last 3 years since the big refurbish. Only thing apparently is the batteries and the clutches might need some work from sitting.

The question that comes into my mind is Why has it been sitting so long after all of the money was spent on it? Seems like quite a waste to put thousands of dollars into the undercarriage and then just lit it rust up. Have they been trying to sell it for the entire 3 years? That might be some clue as to the price

I think the price is a bit too high, but on the other hand, I paid $7000 for my 450. If I put new sprockets, rails, and pads on it, $11000 probably wouldn't looks so high to me. I would just be careful buying a machine that has been sitting and not getting used, especially a dry clutch machine.

[JWB Contracting]

If i had that machine, and it ran, worked and turn well, i would expect to get $8,500 a set of 50% rails/pads and no backhoe. I would then want $2K in cash for the pads and rails and the backhoe is always worth $3K. I seen a painted up one for for $8K this spring at Ritchie Bros. Add it all up and i come to $13.5K less the value of a 50% undercarriage group.

It is getting more and more difficult to find a complete unit with a hoe.

My one concerns would be the steering cluches. Probably just needs disasembly and cleaning, but i would figure this takes about 20 hours if you don't run into other problems. My dad and i sometimes can do both sides in a long day, again if no other issues are found.

Check the swing in the hoe as well.

Good luck.

[KenP]

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[JWB Contracting]

I am used to having the parts on the shelf and done the repairs many times.

I was giving a value in running and moving condition, start deducting for things that are wrong. The crawler and hoe do look to be in good shape for the year. I would want to very that is does have the turbo engine and look under the seat for the power assist cylinders to make sure it is absolutely a "B" machine.


Prices for iron are higher in western canada. I bid up to $16K on a real nice 350C dozer and didn't get it. Kind of wished i had paid it now as it was going into my collection.

Most likely sell 10-15 crawlers every year. Not bad for a spare time gig, i do work full time as a controller for a pipeline construction company. We take our chances on non-running equipment, but generally do better than worse on them. Getting much harder to find replacement iron in any condition for inventory and we have started to raise our prices on used parts.

[Tigerhaze]

I think the back and forth discussions illustrate the regional differences in perceived value of a 450B loader with a hoe attachment and understanding the hidden problems and associated costs with purchasing a used crawler, just like any piece of used equipment.

My first question to you Satch would be: What are your planned uses for this 450B loader and hoe attachment? Most first-time crawler buyers (including myself a few years back) think they know what kind of crawler they want but once they discuss their proposed uses they realize that a different crawler may suit their needs better. Sometimes even a different type of machine is better than a crawler for their proposed uses.

Assuming you still think a 450B and hoe attachment is the right piece of equipment, it is not too to difficult to discuss the potential issues and pitfalls of a particualr model crawler. As Ken and JWB indicated, there are some potential problem areas in a used 450B and rotary swing backhoe attachment that should be evaluated prior to negotiating price. An experienced mechanic will be able to point them out more readily, but you could also identify some of them if you familiarize yourself with some of the archives on here about 450Bs and testing procedures prior to purchase.

Satch, the important thing is that we are debating these issues because we don't want you to get into a compromising situation purchasing this crawler without going into it eyes wide open. I appreciated these guys giving me advice before I purchased my 2010; in hindisght there are some things I overlooked but they did help me make a better decision in the end.

[Jack-the-Ripper]

Most first-time crawler buyers think they know what kind of crawler they want but once they discuss their proposed uses they realize that a different crawler may suit their needs better. Sometimes even a different type of machine is better than a crawler for their proposed uses.

I was thinking if you want to use it off of your property and don't have the rig to haul it, a rubber tired tractor/loader/backhoe might also be an alternative - a JD 310 or Case 580 are good examples.

Yet, I must confess, there was always a romance about using a crawler and I don't regret owning mine.

Jack

[satch]

Boy, this group is great! Lots of good advice.
What do I need it for? Hoe to root out a few acres of thorn trees, a dozer or crawler would also work. Would like a loader that could handle a container with approx. a full cord of wood - with some sort of forks. Some excavating work. I have a few acres of land that needs to be built up - over as long a time as I want - scrape topsoil off, put in fill, put topsoil back on. Would like to dig a small pond. I thought crawler, put on a 4in1 bucket for levelling etc. Needed to load a small dump truck. Most work would be on my property, but occcasionally may have to move it - a real pain.
I was using my cousin's 580 case backhoe, and actually it worked great - until my rental rate went from filling the diesel tank after using to $50 per hour!
I had thought an old jd crawler would fill the spot in light of my budget. I am looking to spend about $10k, $15k at the most.

Thanks for all of your help!

[digitup2]

I don't like buying any thing that has sat for a long time and I will not pay full price for a John Deere motor that has sat for long .At least test the PH level in the coolant .If you test and are heading toward acidic then you are a fool to pay top price .I just bought a 750C LT six way that has done very little the last two years and the PH level was moderately high in to acidic so I am planing a rebuild in the near future with 3700 hours and watching the temp gauge when I run the old Deere I will probably run this dozer my self this winter pushing snow in the snow dump it will push two triaxle's at a time compared to the 550Js but sitting any length of time dose no good for any diesel take my word for it a diesel motor should be ran twenty minutes every month .Digitup.

[KenP]

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