More on PTOs and 3 Point Hitches

[PTO John]

There has been some interest in the past on 3 point hitches and PTO s. Here are my 2 cents worth. My experience has been different than many opinions expressed here. Having said that, I think I have a decent understanding of only 450C,D, and E series. So other models, especially torque converter drives on 550s etc., I don't really know enough to comment on.

Three point hitches and PTO s have always been available , right up to and including G series machines. Well, kind of available... As far as I know, all 450s up to E series, have winch drive/PTO gearing in the transmission. If there is no shaft out the back, just take off the cover and slide the shaft into the driven gear. The output splines on this shaft ( winch drive and PTO are the same) are the 1000 rpm agricultural standard. The shaft is even machined to take the retaining pin on PTO drive shaft yokes. Now the bad news. Only early 450s had a PTO disconnect. The less bad news is that it is not that big of a deal to put one in. I did mine, (450C) about 25 years ago and have probably forgotten something, but basically the engine, clutch housing and front transmission cover have to come out. The good news is that you get to check the transmission pump, put in an upgraded 12 inch clutch and check various other things while you are at it. Deere show 2 front transmission front cover part #s. It turned out I had the one, (T58728) without the hole for the disconnect lever, but it is no big deal to drill it. When you look at the amount of machining done on this, it is hard to figure why Deere stopped drilling this hole, not cost, that is for sure.

My experience with the PTO disconnect has been 100% positive. I must of run up thousands of hours running PTO driven or 3 Point hitch attachments. The clutch arrangement on 450s means you have a live PTO. That is, push the clutch pedal to the first stop and the machine stops moving but the PTO still runs. So, if you get into tough going, you can slow, stop or reverse the tractor with out stopping the PTO. Push the pedal to the floor and the PTO stops. For 450Cs, Ds, and Es at the correct rpm you do get an honest 1000 rpm on the shaft. Drive gear 30 teeth, driven gear 57 teeth on 450Cs, So at the mark on the tach., what you see is what you get. An interesting aside to this is that in late `86, I wanted to trade up to a 450E. The local dealer came up with a memo from Deere that showed all the parts for a PTO disconnect for a 450E, but when he asked if Deere would build one on the next production run, they told us to take a hike. So, who was I to argue with Deere?, next machines were Komatsu, Cat and Hitachi.

3 point hitches were available right up to G series from Lindex. When Lindex operated under their original name, they knew more than a little about modifications for John Deere tractors. Don't have any idea how many they built, but there must be some one around Yakima that knows and where they are.

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/view/11668848 ... 812/116688

At about the same time as I put the PTO in, I decided to get a 3 point hitch. The Lindex one was expensive and was not exactly what I was looking for. I did not need adjustable links etc., but something solid enough to handle loads on steep slopes. Also, I needed to keep the load close to the tractor and when not in use the hitch needed to be as compact as possible. So I built my own. It is built out of Deere parts. The base on the back of the tractor is a trimmed down base used to mount backhoes. The lift cylinders are from the blade of a JD 440 skidder. Pins and bushings are from are the same as used in the 6 way blade. The actual hitch is built to Cat.2 quick change dimensions.

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/view/11668838 ... 631/116688

This hitch has served me well. If I was to make an other one, I would clean up a few things, but would retain the basic design and dimensions etc. So, my experience has been, that in JD450s up to E series, Deere had a tractor that had a PTO built right in, but for whatever reason, they decided to back a way from it. The combination of a PTO and a 3 point hitch gives an incredibly versatile tractor. If any one knows the reason why Deere abandoned this concept, I would sure like to hear it. After having thought about it for 30 years I sure can not figure them out. I guess I am just to old to get it, but when you see all skid steer manufacturers coming out with new attachments every day and small dozers essentially being offered with a blade only, something does not add up. If any one here is thinking about doing the PTO-3point hitch thing, I have only 3 words. GO FOR IT.

[bonker81]

Those are some sweet pictures. you've inspired me to get busy in the shop. I love the cherry picker attachment.

[tjdub]

If any one knows the reason why Deere abandoned this concept, I would sure like to hear it. After having thought about it for 30 years I sure can not figure them out. I guess I am just to old to get it, but when you see all skid steer manufacturers coming out with new attachments every day and small dozers essentially being offered with a blade only, something does not add up.

They did the same thing at the same time with the 450's sister: the 440 skidder. I think the decision had to do with the fact that the only official JD attachment for the PTO was the winch (at least I think it was). At one point, I think they realized that operators were causing winch failures by leaving the PTO off until right before they needed to use it, then they would work the snot out of a poor cold winch filled with cold oil. In order to "fix" this problem, they just took away the lever. Problem solved!

Also, they saved a few dollars in parts on every machine which always looks good on a production engineer's resume.

My 450 is old enough to have the lever, and I'm glad it does. It just bothers me when that winch is running when I'm not going to be using it.

[Smokey450C]

Hey John,

Thanks for your input. I was wondering some of the same things, why not make these things as versitile as possible? You certainly have. I'm just getting started on my three point, it's basically a standard ag style and honestly I'm not happy with it. It's just not strong enough to be behind one of these mini beasts, I've bent up the lift arms several times already and I haven't done that much with it, yet. It looks like you welded much of the bracketry to your backhoe bracket, has that given you any problems? You also mentioned that when the clutch pedal is completely depressed that it will stop the pto, Lavoy had mentioned it too but didn't mention the two step pedal depression, good to know. I posted some pics of my setup if your interested, http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... highlight=
I think this link will work to see some of the conversation about the topic and the pics.

[Lavoy]

The bottom line is sales numbers. If enough people wanted pink seat cushions, Deere would offer it as an option. PTO is just like the gas engine in crawlers, there was insufficient demand, so it was discontinued.
Lavoy

[PTO John]

Hi Smokey,

Your hitch looks good to me. It sure has to a big plus if you can use the backhoe mount without modifcation. Have never had any trouble with mine, but my style would not be for everyone. At least one of the welds you saw in the picture was because I am one of those cheap types and had to join pieces of used steel. If I ever built another one, I would break down and buy something better than mild steel. The expert on these hitches would have to be Ted Adams. He was involved with Lindeman right up to when they became Lindex. He must have all kinds of knowledge on these hitches, pictures etc. Not sure if he would want to share with us. Lavoy would know best on that. Ted`s site is here:

http://www.lindemanarchives.com/

In all probability, if you depress your clutch all the way down now, your pto will not stop, but don`t worry, just rust and gunk on the clutch plate. A heavy load on the pto will break it free. When everything is set up right, you can feel the stages on the clutch pedal. Another advantage of this 2 stage clutch is that you still use pto implements without the disconnect. That is, with an implement that takes a fair bit of torque to start. Just hook it up and then start the engine with the clutch fully depressed and slowly release. Same to stop, push clutch to the floor before turning off the engine. Not the optimum way, but a good (but probably severely frowned upon) work around until you put a disconnect in

Good luck with your project
John