450 won't start

nathan619 · Post by **nathan619** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:58 am

I have a 66 straight JD450 with a CDC Fuel injection pump that will not start. Here's the events.

All this started one day when the dozer just stopped running as if it lost fuel. I got it started long enough to get to the house but if it was put under any load, it would stall, so I had to stay in low first gear to limp home.

I replaced all fuel filters, electric fuel pump, and bled the fuel lines and still no good. I finally took the fuel injection pump to get it repaired (almost $1000) and got it installed and bled the system again at the pump's location and all 4 lines going to the injectors. The dozer ran for a little over a minutes and just died again like it lost fuel.

I have bled and bled the system and since that time, the dozer hasn't ran since. I will not start. While trying to start it, black smoke comes from the exhaust if that means anything.

Anybody got any suggestions?

Tom in Mo. · Post by **Tom in Mo.** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:23 am

I had a similar problem when I went to look at buying my 450. It was getting fuel but it wouldn't hit. As soon as I pulled the air intake hose to the intake manifold it fired right up. It turned out the air filter was totally clogged to the point of collapse. It looked like the original filter from the factory.
Once a new filter was installed it ran like new. No air.

nathan619 · Post by **nathan619** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:58 am

Tom in Mo. wrote:I had a similar problem when I went to look at buying my 450. It was getting fuel but it wouldn't hit. As soon as I pulled the air intake hose to the intake manifold it fired right up. It turned out the air filter was totally clogged to the point of collapse. It looked like the original filter from the factory.
Once a new filter was installed it ran like new. No air.

I removed the intake hose and still the same thing. I went ahead and squirted diesel fuel in the intake and it still won't start.

I'm at a loss with what's wrong.

Tom in Mo. · Post by **Tom in Mo.** » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:01 pm

As you know, it needs fuel, air, and compression. Make sure the battery and starter connections are good to spin the engine fast enough.

mtodd101 · Post by **mtodd101** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:46 pm

Nathan, I had similar running on my 450c loader where it would quit after an minute or two. I disconnected the fuel line from the pump and the fuel was barely coming out. I drained the tank and blew compressed air back though the line and unclogged the sludge. Cleaned the tank as best as I could and she ran fine. A week later the shut off solenoid burnt up and i was down again but check that the fuel is flowing to the pump. GL, Matt

cinok · Post by **cinok** » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:44 pm

There is a screen type filter in the tank
http://jdpc.deere.com/jdpc/servlet/com. ... ervlet_Alt
Its part number seven in the illustration. mine got gunked up and had the same problem( I never had the pump redone though). It will let fuel get through to bleed the system but once under suction it clogs or collapses in some cases.

nathan619 · Post by **nathan619** » Wed May 11, 2011 3:56 am

Shouldn't the dozer at least start some when I sprayed fuel in the air intake?

Willyr · Post by **Willyr** » Wed May 11, 2011 5:19 am

I would check your tank. You can get sediment in the tank that will stop the line from getting fuel. Otherwise there should be a regular fuel pump that should be pushing your fuel. A intermittent pump will give you the same headaches.

Yes black smoke is fine. just a little rich, yet on a diesel, black smoke says you have enough for combustion.

Check those 2 items and get back to us. (fuel tank and fuel pump)

truckerP · Post by **truckerP** » Wed May 11, 2011 1:01 pm

nathan619 wrote:Shouldn't the dozer at least start some when I sprayed fuel in the air intake?

I'm no expert. But I would think this wouldn't work, or at least not very well. The injecters spray a fine mist atomizing the fuel into the incoming air, that combined with compression causes combustion. Just dumping it in seems like a good way to lock it up and possibly damaging something.

Post by **Lavoy** » Wed May 11, 2011 1:58 pm

No, raw fuel on its own will not make them fire. Ether, some carb sprays, and sometimes WD40 will make them fire, but they will detonate as they are firing too soon.
Lavoy

nathan619 · Post by **nathan619** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:42 am

Here's the latest.

I took the pump in to get it checked out once again and they say it's good. I still can't get the dozer to start.

My question now is this. I have a very good stream of fuel going to the pump (shoots out about 4 or so inches) but when I take the 4 lines off the pump that goes to the injectors, hardly any comes out. How much is suppose to come out those 4 holes?

They put this pump on the stand twice and keep saying the pressure is fine.

Thanks

Also, I've replaced all fuel filters, fuel pump, clean the tank and the supply of fuel to the fuel injector pump seems good.

MarkW · Post by **MarkW** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:34 pm

I do not mean to insult another forumite, so please do not interpret it that way, but is it possible the injection pump was installed out of time?

Also, I freely admit I am a noobie when it comes to large diesels, but I would also remove the air filter and give just a small shot of ether to see if it would give you a hit or two. If it does then it pinpoints it being a fuel injection issue.

Here is a question though- can a return line or check valve ever get clogged? If so, could it cause this issue?

DBCSteve · Post by **DBCSteve** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:18 pm

MarkW wrote:Here is a question though- can a return line or check valve ever get clogged? If so, could it cause this issue?

Well, a plugged check return valve will keep it in the open position, running diesel back to the tank rather to the injectors. Could be the classic "mouse droppings" problem. Kept happening to me, solved with installation of a rebuilt pump. I was cautioned to replace or rebuild the pump right away, or further damage to the injection pump could occur which would reduce its core charge value.

Checking pump pressure on the workbench would not reveal problem, since the return check valve will not be connected to the pump.

nathan619 · Post by **nathan619** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:13 am

When I took the pump off both times, I had the flywheel/engine at TDC using the pin in the hole on the flywheel and the pump was at TDC with the pin provided with it. Plus the first time I reinstalled the pump, I did get it to run for about 20 seconds but hasn't hit a lick since.

The return line y'all are referring to, I don't understand. What I did notice was when I was bleeding the pump, I didn't have the 4 hoses to the injectors nor that return line hooked up yet and fuel was poring out the return connector so I assumed it was normal. Is that right?

Oh, and I did shoot WD40, eather, and even diesel fuel in the intake and nothing still. I was getting desprit.

jtrichard · Post by **jtrichard** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:44 am

you used starting fluid and it did not fire at all? do you have vaccum in the intake? with wd40 and start fluid it should try to fire. When you crank it does it seem to crank any faster then before all this started?

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