350C won't start after new Injector Pump and Injectors inst.

[VT350C]

All, Hello! I am a newbie to the forum and have learned a great reading many posts. My problem is not totally different from some posts...Here goes...My 350C injector pump seized and broke the drive shaft (sheered it at the weak spot). It's a JDB pump/Stanadyne configured for a 3 cylinder diesel. I was told that pump could have seized due to clogged/bad injectors. I bought 3 new ones as they were about $90 new for 3 (Chinese aftermarket via Ebay). So I had the new pump, new shaft and 3 new injectors installed. The machine ran for one weekend (perhaps 4-5 hours). Then I went to start 2 weeks later and the machine cranked many times for multiple weekends with nada. It would not turn over and start. It would crank with a little ether, but then die.

We have tried all kinds of things...bled the system...pulled the pump again and brought to Metro Fuel (in Agawam, MA)...They confirmed the pump was 100%...They tested one injector I pulled and said it was 100%...I will test all 3 injectors again before putting them back this Saturday coming Saturday...

The only thing I did btw when it started and when it didn't was clean out the fuel plug in the main fuel tank...I had to stick a wire up the plug (under the seat after taking off the fitting)...Then I drained the fuel out until it flowed well (just to make sure all water and sediment was out)...I don't think the fuel tank or system is the issue with flow as we have tested the lift pump and return lines and fuel is flowing. The fuel is new and I use Diesel Service additive regularly.

I also:
- Put new fuel filter on it machine (although old one wasn't that old)
- Bled system
- Timing pin is in machine in flywheel
- Two lines on pump match up while pin is in (so the engine should be timed correctly, right?)...I still think TIMING is my issue...
- The guy who helped me put the pump back on is an old-timer, but knowledgeable...I am assuming he put the Woodruff Key back in the driveshaft...but don't know...

This weekend, I will:
- Get all 3 injectors tested tomorrow...before putting them back on...
- Hook up all 3 injectors to the lines without putting into the engine...
- Crank over the engine to make sure that fuel is indeed popping through all 3 injectors...
- After that (and assuming that all 3 injectors are opening up properly)...I am at a loss...and come back to some sort timing issue...
- My uncle has 2 350C crawlers and he had the 180 degree issue with pump...I guess he pulled the pump shaft out of pump...rotated the pump 180 degrees and put the shaft back in...then all was OK...

Final thoughts:
- I am assuming the diesel shop aligned the dimple on the shaft with the dimple on the housing of the pump? But I could pull it out to check, then reinsert carefully not to screw up the 2 seals...

Questions:
1) If the timing pin is in the flywheel and the lines on the pump line up and the dimples on the shaft/pump housing are matched...Is it possible to have bad timing still??? Is it possible to be on the exhaust stroke and not the compression stroke??? This still seems like something that my mechanic would know and understand...but just asking...
2) Any theories (no matter how bad) on why the unit would work for one weekend after putting the pump and 3 new injectors on....then it wouldn't?
3) Is there a deeper underlying reason for my pump seizure and the shaft sheering that is really THE #1 problem that still isn't fixed yet? Put another way, are there causes for a pump seizure/pump shaft to sheer, that could reside outside of the pump and 3 injectors (I was told bad injectors could cause a pump seizure and shaft to break/sheer)? This is my biggest fear...that something in the gears cause the pump to seize and that problem may still exist...

Sorry for the rambling post, but I am deep into this fix...been going on since July...The rest of the machine is a monster and in good shape.

THANKS TO ALL!

[440 iron popper]

On stanadyne pumps that I know (db2 and db4 for perkins engines) you have 2 wires on top. Just be shure you have 12V there at cranking and while running and that the solenoid is not open. These are the problems I had with them, not powered and burned solenoid. If I doubt about something mecanical inside, I just bring them to a specialist shop... Good Luck!

[digitup2]

It doesn't take much to seize a pump head or twist a shaft off .I did it two weeks ago with a newly acquired 490 excavator.I have fueled up at night mostly but this time I did the fuel up while warming up in the morning this was my mistake as it gave the fuel system a chance to pickup water and crap stirred up from the bottom of the tank and shove the fuel water and crap through the square glass filter and into the injector pump as I was fueling up I even got to hear the pump go snap I knew exactly what I did when I did it but it was way too late!This 4239 engine uses a DM series Rosa Master Stanadine pump with manual shut down and the same drive and timing gear as the older dozers.I have just hired a young mechanic from the neighboring Deere dealership as things have slowed down for them with seasonal and amalgamation with neighboring dealers is happening right now .I couldn't believe it 20 minutes to take out and ten minutes to put in away we went .All he did was pull the battery positive terminal and lock the battery box Then make sure the timing mark on the block /pump was clearly marked .Then pull the old damaged pump the trickiest part was to pull the gear off the shaft when the old pump pops out mark the key way angle and set the new pump to the same key way angle making sure you don't lose the half moon key on the install .Then line up the new pump housing marks to the block /pump mark.Then after tighten things down hook up the battery's and away you go .As long as you don't turn the machine over with out a pump on it you are good to go and the injector drive gear will not skip unless you do something real stupid .this young mechanic likes running machines so I am going too let him run stuff in his spare time but he is one heck of a mechanic.When He and I took the timing gear puller back to his old shop they asked him to come back behind my back He brought the shop foreman out in front of me and let him have an ear full!..Digitup.

[VT350C]

What's odd is that my new pump and injectors let the machine work fine one weekend, then nada...And I've been trying to turn the damn thing over for months...Pulled the pump, rechecked it, pump was good...checking injectors this weekend, but I think the thing is off and simply timing is the issue...So, I think the thing wasn't timed perfectly when my mechanic got the thing going the first weekend...and it needs to be time really thoroughly...But I really think the thing is either timed or not, but I think the valves can be tweaked, but we didn't touch those...just the flywheel...

I ordered a new key just in case it fell out or is missing and the pump is limping along on tension of the bolt only...Not sure if this is possible, but I know VW engines have no key...I think the pump solely turns based on tension of a bolt...but that's a totally different game...

Thanks again for your help!

[jdemaris]

This weekend, I will:
- Get all 3 injectors tested tomorrow...before putting them back on...
- Hook up all 3 injectors to the lines without putting into the engine...
- Crank over the engine to make sure that fuel is indeed popping through all 3 injectors...

1) If the timing pin is in the flywheel and the lines on the pump line up and the dimples on the shaft/pump housing are matched...Is it possible to have bad timing still??? Is it possible to be on the exhaust stroke and not the compression stroke??? This still seems like something that my mechanic would know and understand...but just asking...
2) Any theories (no matter how bad) on why the unit would work for one weekend after putting the pump and 3 new injectors on....then it wouldn't?
3) Is there a deeper underlying reason for my pump seizure and the shaft sheering that is really THE #1 problem that still isn't fixed yet? Put another way, are there causes for a pump seizure/pump shaft

If it ran before and now it doesn't, the timing cannot be the issue unless that new driveshaft got installed with no key where the gear fits on the tapered end.

Your injectors aren't going to be the problem. If it ran until you shut it down and then would not start - can be several issues as a cause. #1 the pump degraded after being first run to a point where it can inject fuel at engine running speeds but cannot at the lower engine cranking speed off the starter.

Pull the timing window off and verify the pump is still turning. If it IS still turning, trying hooking one injector to one line outside the engine, crank and see if it injects. If nothing happens, and the pump is turning, I'd pull the top cover off the pump completely and then see if it injects when cranking. Taking the cover off eliminates the possibility of the fuel solenoid not working. With the cover off, the pump is in "run" position unless the metering valve is stuck and jammed closed. You can see it with the cover off.

As to a cause? I doubt you did anything to cause the problem. I'd suspect the quality of the pump. You said it's "new" which I doubt. It is really new, or is it an old patched up, resealed pump sold as "rebuilt?"

By the way, you can easily test the pump at home. When off the engine, if you turn it with a big screwdriver while squirting diesel into the inlet with a hand-held oil-pump-can, it will start to turn hard, click, and inject if working. Just make sure the solenoid is energized.

[jtrichard]

VT i dont want to sound like a smart a-- but no where have you said you checked to see it you have power 12 volts to the pump as 440 said and make sure you still have voltage when cranking .....some times its the simpliest things like a ing./ starter switch

[LeonardL]

I was thinking the same exact thing!

[VT350C]

I was thinking the same exact thing!

I will recheck this. The mechanic who did all this did check this, but perhaps not this most recent time...The 1 wire (I think there is only one) was hooked up. We heard clicking as well.

I will get a volt-meter hooked up to check, but also hook up all 3 injectors to see if fuel is misting through all 3 injectors while I crank.

Lavoy also mentioned ensuring fuel tank is cleared out...I will go through all the connections from fuel tank to the injectors and ensure fuel is flowing generously for many many seconds to ensure there is no starvation/vacuum along the way...I am thinking that perhaps a few second test could gush (e.g. on the return line)...but that it may peter-out if the test lasted 30 seconds...

Thanks for eveyone's help! Snow is a comin' and I gotta get 'er runnin'...

[VT350C]

All,

Thanks for all of your help. I wanted to close the loop on this saga...OK, turns out that the series of events went like this:

- Symptom 1: 350C shut down immediately...
- Reason 1: Injector pump shaft seized and stopped pumping fuel into engine.
- Solution 1: Got remanufactured pump...ran for 5 hours...
- Symptom 2: 350C would not start...
- Solution 2: THIS WAS THE DOLDRUMS of my machine...Good mechanic got the unit started by excessively bleeding the system at the end of the injector lines...Confirmed fuel was pumping from all 3 lines...then hooked back up...Then try to stall the unit by 1 by 1 loosening all 3 lines...First 2 stalled as expected..3rd one did nada, which meant NO COMPRESSION in 1 cylinder...
- Reason 2: Turns out I had 1 broken ring and 1 stuck ring causing major engine difficulties...

Needless to say, I then did a full complete engine rebuild...new piston, rings, liners, new radiator core...also put in new injectors...lift pump...Essentially a whole new engine and cooling system...

Things are working well, but I still think a bit too much smoke and burning oil...I think that the rings may have not have been staggered properly...UGH!!!! But she is working well and being productive...

Thanks to all who weighed in on this...
Bob

[LeonardL]

Bob, It could be that the rings just haven't seated yet. Give her a chance to seat in and then see what the smoke does. It may take a several hours for the rings to get seated properly. You may well have rings lined up but run it for a while and then pass judgement.

[VT350C]

I hope you are right! I will monitor the situation, but I probably already have 15+ hours on the new engine...I will monitor closely by the hour and see how she does...Thanks!

Bob, It could be that the rings just haven't seated yet. Give her a chance to seat in and then see what the smoke does. It may take a several hours for the rings to get seated properly. You may well have rings lined up but run it for a while and then pass judgement.

[VT350C]

Just to follow-up on this thread. It turned out that I had no compression in one of the three cylinders...Rings broken in one, partially stuck in another...Complete engine rebuild followed! Much better now. So the unit would not start due to poor compression (air and fuel were fine)...Thanks for everyone's help...

My big (not so big) issue now is that after the complete engine rebuild (along with remanned pump, new injectors) the engine still smokes a bit...even after heating up and running...It's consistent little smoke even when no load and heated up...It's not a super dark smoke...more white/grey...It has been over 100 hours of break-in on the new engine...Mechanic swears he staggered the rings...The unit is also burning through a fair amount of oil...Maybe a quart or two every 40 hours...of pretty hard work...

- Is it normal to burn through oil when working the unit pretty hard -- even with a completely rebuilt engine?
- Do you think the timing could be caused by slightly misaligned injector pump or valve tweaking? It could just need some timing tweaks to work perfectly...I have an older 302A loader that is clean as a whistle with NO smoke and it has not been rebuilt lately...
- The oil pressure gauge has read a bit high as well...65-70 PSI when it should be around 50 per spec...Could the oil burn be caused by too high of oil pressure?

Many Thanks!

I hope you are right! I will monitor the situation, but I probably already have 15+ hours on the new engine...I will monitor closely by the hour and see how she does...Thanks!

Bob, It could be that the rings just haven't seated yet. Give her a chance to seat in and then see what the smoke does. It may take a several hours for the rings to get seated properly. You may well have rings lined up but run it for a while and then pass judgement.