I'm still working on service on my little 450c, I finally got the fill plug out of the right final drive,. Now I have them full of diesel waiting till I can drive a bit to flush them out. I was hoping I could do that today but the radiator is going to need to have a couple of tubes fixed.
Couple of new issues.
1) The right fill plug for the steering clutch is stuck. I'd like to leave if I can and come back to it later. I've been working on this machine killing time for my FPS to arrive and I was able to get it installed tonight. I'd like to use it some ! I know the steering clutches share the transmission fluid, once I drain the transmission and service it, is there a way to overfill the transmission and get it pumped over there?
2) I noticed today when I had the bucket pushed down there was a gap between the front crossbar and the frame. There are no broke bolts and when looking at the parts diagram, there are "bushings" . Is that suppose to be able to move up and down some?
Lets see if I can link a picture: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mustang_re ... hotostream
3) I started my little machine with the neutral lock engaged and the machine tried to move forward till the bucket dug in enough and caught it. I've read some bits and pieces on this, is it a linkage adjustment issue? Just looking for an idea to get pointed in the right direction.
4) I installed an oil pressure and water temp gauge and was happy to find out my little machine carries about 50psi oil pressure even when warmed up. However the water temp never gets much above 140 degrees, what is normal temp for these little diesels?
I'll be posting up some pictures tomorrow when I get to work and can find my flicker information. I had to get a bit creative to get the front left leg of the FPS in place to weld....
450c service III
450c service III
JD- 450C track loader
Serial #208336T
Serial #208336T
Okay... I have said before that I don't know the 450s very well. But the 450 cross member can't be any different than a 350, it's just bigger and heavier. From what I see in your pictures you need new bushings and probably new bolts. You will want to look closely at the cross member itself for wear in the holes for the bushings. If the cross member is worn and from what I can see it is. You may need to have those holes built up with a welder. You have quite a gap there. You should have a little gap because yes there is supposed to be some play or give there. But not as much as you have.
I have had different people tell me that you can't build these cross members up with a welder because they are cast metal. They are cast but they are cast steel and not cast iron. I have used a good 7018 rod with DC reverse and had great success in doing this.
There may be other fixes for this out there and I just haven't heard of them. So... Again maybe some of these other guys will have a better solution for you.
On your fill plug question, I would assume that sense the system is a common fluid that the oil will flow through the bearings and maybe even a hole designed for this reason. Again I hope that someone with that 450 experience will step up and give you a definite answer. I hope this has helped a little... Take care and good luck!
I have had different people tell me that you can't build these cross members up with a welder because they are cast metal. They are cast but they are cast steel and not cast iron. I have used a good 7018 rod with DC reverse and had great success in doing this.
There may be other fixes for this out there and I just haven't heard of them. So... Again maybe some of these other guys will have a better solution for you.
On your fill plug question, I would assume that sense the system is a common fluid that the oil will flow through the bearings and maybe even a hole designed for this reason. Again I hope that someone with that 450 experience will step up and give you a definite answer. I hope this has helped a little... Take care and good luck!
40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.
-
JWB Contracting
- 2010 crawler
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:08 pm
- Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Cross mrmber should be solid
On a 450's (and 350's) there are both mounting bolts from the top, plus two from the inside of the cross bar pointing inwards. Best check the bolts coming from the inside, they may already be broke if you have this much play.
There should not be any movememt in the cross members. If there is it will cause wear on the rear round cross member and likely result in broken bolts thoughout the mounts attaching the front cross member to the frame sections and transmission and rear cross memember mounts to the final drives. I find that the cross members and frame sections are the most troublesome issue on the older yellow deeres.
We do not use the bushings when doing a rebuilt and often drill and tap the mounting bolts out to the appropriate larger size. On our widepads we go as far as welding the cross members to the track frames and also weld flat bar accross the bolt heads so they do not come loose. Also, use new high quality bolts each time. We have not had any down time on our machines with broken mounting for cross members and frame sections since we started taking these extreme measures.
There should not be any movememt in the cross members. If there is it will cause wear on the rear round cross member and likely result in broken bolts thoughout the mounts attaching the front cross member to the frame sections and transmission and rear cross memember mounts to the final drives. I find that the cross members and frame sections are the most troublesome issue on the older yellow deeres.
We do not use the bushings when doing a rebuilt and often drill and tap the mounting bolts out to the appropriate larger size. On our widepads we go as far as welding the cross members to the track frames and also weld flat bar accross the bolt heads so they do not come loose. Also, use new high quality bolts each time. We have not had any down time on our machines with broken mounting for cross members and frame sections since we started taking these extreme measures.
Jason Benesch
John Deere 420, 430, 440 & 350C With 3 Point Hitch
John Deere 400G With Winch
John Deere 2010 Crawler Dozer
John Deere 420, 430, 435 & 440 Wheel Tractors
John Deere 420, 430, 440 & 350C With 3 Point Hitch
John Deere 400G With Winch
John Deere 2010 Crawler Dozer
John Deere 420, 430, 435 & 440 Wheel Tractors
Jason,
You have done almost exactly what I always wanted to try and the "Powers" that were in charge would never let me!
I kept trying to convince them that the newer machines were bolted solid so why not modify the older machines!?!?! Anyway... Good point on the inner bolts as I had forgotten about those buggers. I have slept a few nights sense I have last worked on one of these. This getting old crap is for the birds!!! 
You have done almost exactly what I always wanted to try and the "Powers" that were in charge would never let me!
I kept trying to convince them that the newer machines were bolted solid so why not modify the older machines!?!?! Anyway... Good point on the inner bolts as I had forgotten about those buggers. I have slept a few nights sense I have last worked on one of these. This getting old crap is for the birds!!! 40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.
Well that is not what I wanted to hear..
I know the inner cross member bolts are still in the machine and I think all of the bolts are seized up. I tried to break the outer bolts loose with a break over bar and could not.
I guess I'll try and lift up the cross member to pull the gap back and see if I can get some heat on anything in there. Maybe work them over with the impact some.
So if I read Jason's post correctly, in the short term could I replace the bushing with a sleeve that is the same height as the cross members mounting flange and put in new bolts? That should prevent the up and down motion. Then later remove the sleeves and drill and tap frame out larger?
I know the inner cross member bolts are still in the machine and I think all of the bolts are seized up. I tried to break the outer bolts loose with a break over bar and could not.
I guess I'll try and lift up the cross member to pull the gap back and see if I can get some heat on anything in there. Maybe work them over with the impact some.
So if I read Jason's post correctly, in the short term could I replace the bushing with a sleeve that is the same height as the cross members mounting flange and put in new bolts? That should prevent the up and down motion. Then later remove the sleeves and drill and tap frame out larger?
JD- 450C track loader
Serial #208336T
Serial #208336T
-
JWB Contracting
- 2010 crawler
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:08 pm
- Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Quick Fix or Total Rebuid
Well I think it comes down to 2 choices.
1. Try and remove the bolts, it they start twisting off stop unless you want to remove the entire track frame. If you bolt holes are good, you can just use a heavy oversize washer that covers the hole that the bushing fits in or use a bushing that fits in but does not go past the mounting flange. Last resort is to weld the cross member to the track frame. We always weld our cross memebers and track frames even when we go to option #2 (total rebuild). Many will say that this is not the correct way to do this repair. If you are doing a restoration yes, you want to go with a factory type repair. If you are going to working the crawler and not putting it in a show room then a little welding between the cross memeber and track frame is not a bad thing. Just rememeber that if you have to remove the track frame later you will have to grind the weld off so don't get carried away with the welding.
2. Total rebuilt - only if none of your bolt holes are good and/or bolts are broken. We always remove the entire track frame to work on it. Drill out the broken bolts and re-tap to the current size or upsize to larger bolts.
Just a few options. I would first try (gently) to remove the bolts and then either replace the bushing (if the holes are not worn) or use heavy flat washers. This will tighten the old girl back up. Consider welding only around the outside edge of the track frame as well as it is easy to grind off.
I think that we go fairly over kill when fixing our own for work machines as we really do not like any down time. See my post under 350C Dozer on show and tell. All the crossmember to frame section bolts were still in place and intact after about 10 years of service, with 5 of the years in our fleet with a backhoe strapped on. It did take me about 2 hours to grind the round bar of the bolt heads and get them out. I think this was a much better alternative than having to remove and possibly rethread broken bolts.
1. Try and remove the bolts, it they start twisting off stop unless you want to remove the entire track frame. If you bolt holes are good, you can just use a heavy oversize washer that covers the hole that the bushing fits in or use a bushing that fits in but does not go past the mounting flange. Last resort is to weld the cross member to the track frame. We always weld our cross memebers and track frames even when we go to option #2 (total rebuild). Many will say that this is not the correct way to do this repair. If you are doing a restoration yes, you want to go with a factory type repair. If you are going to working the crawler and not putting it in a show room then a little welding between the cross memeber and track frame is not a bad thing. Just rememeber that if you have to remove the track frame later you will have to grind the weld off so don't get carried away with the welding.
2. Total rebuilt - only if none of your bolt holes are good and/or bolts are broken. We always remove the entire track frame to work on it. Drill out the broken bolts and re-tap to the current size or upsize to larger bolts.
Just a few options. I would first try (gently) to remove the bolts and then either replace the bushing (if the holes are not worn) or use heavy flat washers. This will tighten the old girl back up. Consider welding only around the outside edge of the track frame as well as it is easy to grind off.
I think that we go fairly over kill when fixing our own for work machines as we really do not like any down time. See my post under 350C Dozer on show and tell. All the crossmember to frame section bolts were still in place and intact after about 10 years of service, with 5 of the years in our fleet with a backhoe strapped on. It did take me about 2 hours to grind the round bar of the bolt heads and get them out. I think this was a much better alternative than having to remove and possibly rethread broken bolts.
Jason Benesch
John Deere 420, 430, 440 & 350C With 3 Point Hitch
John Deere 400G With Winch
John Deere 2010 Crawler Dozer
John Deere 420, 430, 435 & 440 Wheel Tractors
John Deere 420, 430, 440 & 350C With 3 Point Hitch
John Deere 400G With Winch
John Deere 2010 Crawler Dozer
John Deere 420, 430, 435 & 440 Wheel Tractors
I managed to get all 8 of the cross member to track frame bolts loose with a little heat and an impact. The inner bolts are all intact and I just left them alone at this point. That said the frame is worn quite a bit.
For right now I've put over sized 3/4" flat washers with the 5/8" regular washer to tide me over. My plan right now is to cut the bushing shorter to use it to help build up the bolt holes.
Does anyone know if a person could use a wire feed welder on the cross member? It would not be near as brittle and much easier to build-up than the 7018 stick welding rod that Leondard has suggested.
On a different note I spent the time and removed the steering clutch fill plug and I'm pretty glad I did. See as how it cannot hardly drain because of being air locked I think it would of be wishful thinking at best to think fluid would of moved over from the main transmission in a timely manner.
For right now I've put over sized 3/4" flat washers with the 5/8" regular washer to tide me over. My plan right now is to cut the bushing shorter to use it to help build up the bolt holes.
Does anyone know if a person could use a wire feed welder on the cross member? It would not be near as brittle and much easier to build-up than the 7018 stick welding rod that Leondard has suggested.
On a different note I spent the time and removed the steering clutch fill plug and I'm pretty glad I did. See as how it cannot hardly drain because of being air locked I think it would of be wishful thinking at best to think fluid would of moved over from the main transmission in a timely manner.
JD- 450C track loader
Serial #208336T
Serial #208336T
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