cold weather starts and my bucket wont move.

[Scottyb]

My 350b starts easily parked outside with a puff of either down to -20 Celsius without being plugged in. however, the bucket tilt valves are always frozen for 20 min or so after start up. The up and down of the loader is fine from the start. I tried greasing the exposed parts of the spools and wiping off etc. but the same problem exists every time. I have a similar problem with the throddle cable and , have taken it off and on twice with a solvent, oil, and air compressor cleaning but still 20 min. before it will work properly. I could just replace the cable I guess however, I just realized I keep forgetting to check to see if it is frozen in the injector pump and will look at that when I get back up to the cabin. I gave the crawler a good pressure cleaning this summer and I assume I caused the problem, but what do I do now about it? I am a rookie at hydraulic valves and not sure on this. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I plan on using it this winter and the temp here gets very cold. Usually I will work outside until -30. Colder that that is not uncommon here but then, we light a fire and find things to do inside.
Scottyb in toontown

[KenP]

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[LeonardL]

Ken has given you some great, very sound advice!! Ether is the number one killer of an engine, second only to poor maintenance. Maybe even first before poor maintenance. I personally hate ether!!
What happens is, a diesel fires off of compression. As the piston approaches top dead center it is squeezing the air inside the cylinder down into a very tiny space. As it does, it creates an enormous amount of heat in the process. The cylinder is timed to fire at a set time and place in the rotation of the piston. Fuel is injected into this hot air at an exact point in timing. It's flash point is only a few degrees of either side of top dead center. Depending on the different manufactures of diesel engines.
When ether is applied, its flash point will always be before the piston has traveled up to top dead center. It will fire or flash at a lower temperature. So in this process the piston is being forced to continue traveling up towards top dead center through the combustion of the ether. This causes great pressure on the head of the piston, the compression rings, cylinder head and valves, that in some cases aren't completely closed yet. Thus the "Pinging" or hammering sound you hear before the engine catches up to the force being applied.
This will cause broken pistons, broken compression rings and scored cylinder walls. If enough ether is applied it will wash down the cylinder walls and cause oil ring failure, allowing the ether to collect in the oil pan. This is not a good thing! I have personally witnessed a 220 Cummins diesel engine explode and catch on fire because of this very thing.
In your conditions where you have extreme cold for long periods of time. I would not only get a tank heater, I would do a block heater as well. I would get winter blended fuel with anti-gel conditioner in it. If you can't find the fuel already mixed, you can do it yourself by buying the conditioner from any good parts store. Our local NAPA store handles two or three brands of conditioner and it is all about the same.
If your machine is in a remote location where you don't have electricity, I have used a small generator to operate these heaters. It usually doesn't take more than an hour or so to heat your block and tank. Avoid the ether! You'll be glad you did in the long run.

If your hydraulics are freezing... Ken is right on! You have water in the fluid. In your case I would drain the system and replace the fluid and filter.
I would also look for a winter blended hydraulic fluid. It will be thinner in viscosity and will have anti moisture agents blended in. I know Valvoline and Chevron both have these oils available. Deere probably has some sort of winter fluid as well.

Your cable freezing is because of moisture inside of the cable housing. I have heated these with a propane torch and dried them out but you have to be careful not to get them too hot. Most of these cables have a nylon liner that will melt and then you will buy a new cable. It's probably a good idea to just go ahead and buy one. Cables are hard at best to get rid of all of the moisture that's in them.
I hope this helps and I hope for your sake that winter is kind to you! I've lived up north and I know how brutal it can get. Missouri does too but down here it comes and goes. Up your way it likes to hang for a while... sometimes a long while!! Take care and Merry Christmas!!!

[Scottyb]

Ken, good to know about the either. Sure works good though. Tank heater would be a magnetic electric unit on the side of the fuel tank? Or, do they make a heater just for that purpose? I have the circulating water heater on the left side of the engine, It heats the whole engine up nicely in a few hours and I will be using that more. This is my first diesel powered equipment so I've got some learning to do. I will do some test starts at different outside temperatures to see when it needs to be plugged in for easy starting.
I changed the Hydraulic fluid this fall. it was not that bad looking, dark but not showing signs of water in it. (The reverser fluid was creamy, and I changed that fluid and the filter. Works fine. Lucky. I hope it keeps working.)

The linkage is good, it is the valves I think. Lifting the whole loader is not a problem just tilting the bucket up and down. Will not even budge ( that is the handle on the valves will easily move up and down but not side to side) until it warms up. Could I have water in just one valve from the pressure washer?
Thanks for your help
Scottyb

[JWB Contracting]

Well guys, we have not had any misshaps with either and deere engines. You can even either lock a deere engine and not cause any dammage. Wo do however use Kleen flow either only.

I do agree that it is better to plug in the block heater, we have the on our winter yard use crawlers.

[KenP]

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[LeonardL]

As bad as I hate to admit this... Ether is sometimes a necessary evil. I neglected in saying that in my first post. I think what Ken said about ether being a violent way to start a motor is right on. After seeing that Cummins go up in smoke and then seeing the damage! I kept one of the push rods that was blown through the rocker covers and was at least fifty feet from where the truck was parked. And "NO!" I wasn't involved in the process! I was on my way across the lot to help get the truck started when it blew up.
I have had at least a dozen completely destroyed engines come across my path and all of them were from cold weather starting using ether.
I realize that most of the equipment out there is probably at a job site or a remote area where it is next to impossible to plug in. I also realize that if applied properly, most likely you will never see a problem with the use of ether. In fact most equipment has some sort of ether start aid engineered into their air intake systems.
Perhaps what I should say is if you are going to use it, then use it right. Don't over use it and only use it when it is absolutely necessary!

[Lavoy]

I would disagree on one point. It is not the ether that killed the engine, it is the idiot holding the ether can that killed it. The simple fact of the matter is you can not be plugged in all the time. Farming fields that were 5 or 10 miles from home, we simply did not have the luxury of plugging a tractor or combine in every night. So, on occasions throughout the life of many of out tractors and combines, they had to be ethered. Dad's 4020 has somewhere well north of 8,000 hours, all of them put on by us, and in it's life, it has had zero engine work other than a couple of injectors. Ditto on a couple other tractors we have owned since new, put well past 6,000, some appraoching 9,000 hours on, and never had engine trouble.
Yep, if you dump half a can of ether in an engine, you will break it. Same if you don't change the oil, fill the radiator, or a myriad of other potential engine destroying issues. All of which are operator error, and have nothing to do with the particular part that failed due to lack of maintenance or operator abuse.
Lavoy

[Scottyb]

Thanks guys for all the information. I now have a good plan for cold starting my crawler that is much better than what I was doing. I was just spraying either into the intake a few times until it sounded like it was running smoothly. Now I know that with the winter engine oil and the winter fuel (winter diesel is sold here at the pump and I have drained the remaining summer diesel out and replaced it with the cold weather fuel. Turns out I'm told, that many farmers here purchase winter fuel in the fall and store it in a separate storage tank ) I have learned that down to -10c my crawler starts nicely without any either or plugging in. If it is colder than that, I am going to be parking it near the cabin so I will plug in the engine heater. If it happens that I have to leave it further out in the bush I do have a generator. I will also try to purchase the either brand/type recommended by Jason but will use it sparingly, if it becomes necessary. My engine is running nicely and I hope with this plan, and good maintenance, to keep it that way for a long time. All your help is really appreciated.
I will follow up with my frozen bucket valve issues, after I check the fluid again and try to solve the problem.
Have a great Christmas.
I am hoping to spend some of my time off, over the holidays, on my crawler skidding logs.
Scottyb

[LeonardL]

Lavoy,
I was being nice and not going to say what you did in your post. When we got the fire extinguished on that poor truck, I took a look around to see what had been done. As a result of this short bit of investigation, I counted five, yes five empty 16oz cans of 75% starting fluid! The sixth can was still being held by one of the idiots that was doing this! It was half empty! You are exactly right when you said it is the idiot that is applying the stuff! I didn't want to step on anybodies toes by saying what I wanted to because it would insult a very large group of local, state and federal employees that are really good operators. People that would not do such a stupid and irresponsible deed. We had a group of four idiots all pouring ether into this engine. It was -15F that morning. They had no where important to go or anything that resembled an emergency. It was just stupid!
I have had to deal with a lot of these types of individuals in my 35 years of public service and because of this I have seen too many issues because of ether and the idiots applying it.
You are exactly right! If you use it correctly there won't be a problem. But I still don't like the stuff.

[digitup2]

I have seen people killed by ether It is wild stuff and should only be used sparingly .We had a 450H with 2500 hours on it come into the shop several days ago with the piston ring edges busted off two pistons from ether I know that dozer has an ether assist but not all Deere engines can take the unbelievable pressure that is created as the chamber ignites in a pre dead center position .As Leonard says it truly is the smoking gun that would kill an engine just not the idiot that pulled the trigger!! Digitup.

[KenP]

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[Scottyb]

I am humbled, amazed and grateful for the support I have received here on this messageboard in the few weeks since I signed on. It is a very good feeling, people helping each other. My pride of owning a JD crawler couldn't be higher.
thanks again everyone
Scottyb

[jdemaris]

My 350b starts easily parked outside with a puff of either down to -20 Celsius without being plugged in. however, the bucket tilt valves are always frozen for 20 min or so after start up.

How are you using the ether? Right out of the can into the intake - or the factory installed ether injector? Deere equipped 350s with injectors to help prevent using too much ether. The 152 diesel cannot handle ether very well. I've had to rebuild many that lost all the tops rings and sometimes half the pistons and a few with bent rods. I've also found that the 152s rebuilt with aftermarket pistons break even easier. The 450 turbos with Keystone-Plasma rings tolerate ether much better. We had one customer that broke all his pistons from ether. He did it on a -10 F day when needed the crawler in a hurry. After I rebuilt the engine AND installed a circulating tank heater - he swore he'd never do it again. A month later he got a tractor stuck in the snow and needed his 350. He did not plug it in to get it warm. He once again loaded it with ether. This time, with the new Tisco pistons - they completely blew apart. Even with mild ether use, the square-cut rings on 350s break very easy. Even when all the tops rings are broken, a 350 still runs pretty well when warm. Just won't start cold without more ether.

With your control cable? We always had that problem after pressure-washer and made a policy never to do it except in the summer.

With your hydraulics. Is it just the one function that doesn't work? I ask because Deere had cold oil flow problems with 350s. Normal grade oil like HyGuard can break the hydraulic filter restriction indicator if cold started and revved up. Many 350s have the hydraulic return filters blown off and the operators don't know it. Over the years Deere tried different micron level filters. In the end, with the latest filter - you need an oil thinner then standard HyGuard 20W for winter use. Deere used to recommend mixing with kerosene for cold weather but now they sell a winter-grade HyGuard that is 10W.

Just curious. When you cold start - what is your indicator doing? If nothing - it's either broken or your filter is missing.

You really need to install a circulating tank filter - between the lower block and the thermostat housing.

[Lavoy]

When I ether anything, if you push the botton on the can for more than one or two spurts, it is way too much With the tractors and combines that have factory installed electric actuated ether injectors, we never ethered until the engine is turning over, and then press the button for half a second or so.
I think the main problem with people spraying ether into the air cleaner is they don't realize how long it takes for the ether to get to the engine, so they keep loading up on ether til it fires. By that time, the air cleaner and the whole intake system is full of ether, and the cold engine "runs away" so to speak as it draws in that huge gulp of volatile ether. If you only spray a couple of 1 second bursts into the air intake at most, and nothing more, but the time the engine fires, virtually all of the ether is already in the engine, or mostly vaporized in the intake system so it is not such a violent boom. Otherwise, not really any different than using dynamite.
Lavoy