350B Will Not Start

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My previously hard to start 350B, now will not start at all. I am a bit perplexed by the problem as I drove the unit to it's resting location, only a few days ago.

The engine does not seem to be responding to starting fluid being added. At one time today, after adding starting fluid, the engine did start and was starting to rev up pretty quickly. In response to the higher RPMs, I backed the throttle lever off and the engine died - as if it ran out of fuel. Since then, I cannot get the engine to respond to adding starting fluid. It did not over-rev or anything that would make me think something broke.

I would think the engine would at least start and run momentarily when adding the starting fluid unless it does not have compression. I get a few puffs of smoke out of the exhaust, but not a whole lot.

I'm thinking I may have a valve train problem... How do I check the compression on the 350B? I have performed several compression checks on gasoline engines, but never on a diesel. I am not sure where to get into the head - I assume the test gauge should be installed in the injector port after removing the injector...?

Thanks for reading my post and I look forward to your comments/suggestions.

[jtrichard]

does it seem to crank any faster than before? if you have valve problems it should crank differently it will rev like hell on starting fluid only.... as you said it did .....crack the injector lines and see if you have any fuel

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Thanks and Good point JTRichard - It does not seem to be cranking any faster. I'll double check the fuel at the injector lines.

Do you know how to check the compression on the diesel?

[jtrichard]

i assume you have checked fuel to the pump?

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I did not check the fuel at the injector pump nor injectors tonight. I had limited time this evening after work/before dark and the side cover was on the injector side.

I did check to make sure the transfer pump was keeping the filter full - which it was. I plan to check the fuel at the injector pump at my next opportunity. The machine is resting about 20 miles from my home and only have an hour or so of light after work.

What are your thoughts about the unit not seeming to respond to the starting fluid?

[KenP]

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Thanks KenP - I checked the transfer pump by cracking the bleed at the filter bowl and pumping - noting the spray of fuel and then using the priming lever to see the pump spray out fuel.

I did use ether sparingly to start the engine - knowing the associate woes.... It was use ether to get it running and get some work, or not run at all... I do find it interesting that JD actually built in a system for using starting fluid/ether on the machine. Most of the older machines I have been around required a little starting help.

I have searched the service manual for the details on how to check the compression, but the details are either elusive or not there. I plan to pull the injectors and check the compression there if my compression gauge will fit.

[KenP]

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OK, So I just got my new rebuilt head back on the 350B and it still will not start. The cylinder walls looked OK with no scratches, etc. There is a slight wear ring at the top of each cylinder - not bad but you can feel it with your fingernail.

I checked the compression today with the following approximate readings:
#1 - 350 PSIG
#2 - 100 PSIG
#3 - 225 PSIG
Note - really weird the proportional drops of approximately 125 PSIG.

The valves were adjusted to spec after rebuilding and installing the new head. I slowly rotated the engine watching the #1 intake valve open, then close and continuing to rotate the engine slightly until the flywheel timing pin slipped into position. However, the injection pump timing marks are not lined up or visible at all in this engine position (#1 TDC).

By the Way - Does the flywheel timing pin go into a hole or is it just a dimple in the flywheel that leaves the shoulder of the special pin sticking out a bit?? The pin goes in good and the engine will not turn with it inserted, but I would have expected a complete insertion of the pin - completely up to the shoulder.

I just really can't believe that much compression could be lost around the rings with the condition the cylinder walls and tops of the pistons look. If someone has input on losing this much compression around the rings with what appear to be good walls, etc. please share.

I am really second guessing the overall cam timing. especially with the proportional pressure drops from #2 and #3 cylinders. Everything looks OK when adjusting the valves, the ones that are supposed to be adjusted appear to be at the top of the travel, etc.

I guess the next step is to drop the nose, pull the radiator and timing cover off the front for an inspection of the timing gears and timing. If that looks good, the dreaded head removal and complete replacement of the pistons and cylinders will be next....

I welcome any and all suggestions.

Thanks for reading my post!

[LeonardL]

I think you are 180 Degrees out on your timing for one thing and instead of worrying about the timing and pulling the front cover. You will need to instead drop the pan and take your head back off and pull the pistons. You can't have that kind of compression loss and your diesel engine run. Because, yes you can have that much compression going past your rings. Actually it isn't compressing at all, rather it is bypassing entirely. You will most likely find broken rings or stuck, collapsed rings. That is, stuck in the ring groves. You could even have worn ring grooves on the pistons which allows the bypassing of compression.
Your timing pin will not insert all the way to the shoulder of the pin. However I have ran into fly wheel balance holes that the pin will drop in to and cause you to think you are in the timing hole. Look on the crankshaft pulley and the front timing cover and see if you have the timing marks on them. Look from the right hand side of the motor down under the oil fill spout. Some engines came out with these additional marks and will tell you if the fly wheel pin is in the right place.
But even if your timing is out, you should still get compression while cranking the engine over. At some point those valves are going to close and you should get compression. The fact that you are getting 350 psi on one cylinder tells me that you have timing right enough for all three cylinders to compress if they are in good condition. Make sense? In other words, if your other two cylinders were as good as the one that has the 350 psi you should be running.

On another note... Did you do a leak test on this re-built head? A leak test will tell you if the re-builder did a good job of lapping in the valves and getting the lash right. As well as making sure the valves are closing all the way. Did he clean the valves good enough? Or is there carbon built up on the stems and holding them open?
With the head off you can use a little diesel fuel or WD 40 or some kind of oil based liquid and pour or spray it in the intake and exhaust ports on the backs of the valve heads. Look for leakage around the heads of the valves on the cylinder side of the head. Let us know what you find!!

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Thanks! That's great information LeonardL and I appreciate your detailed answers.

You mention you think I am 180 Degrees out on my timing. I assume you are talking about the injection pump timing? If so, the pump has not been removed and the engine was running before. Therefore, I suspect I have injection pump problems in addition to the low compression issue.

The reason I was thinking about the front cover and timing, it seems to me that the cam could have skipped out of time due to worn or broken timing gears and the valves opening at the incorrect time - thereby not building compression. This is not too probable, but it sticks in my mind. I also don't know a lot about the experience of the guys who last rebuilt the engine. I wonder if they got the timing marks properly aligned when they reassembled the engine. I have only had the loader for a few months and the engine was running fairly well but it was very hard starting and did not want to run at slow idle. The guy I purchased the loader from also mentioned something about a rebuilt injector pump being installed and he said "the loader never did seem to run very fast after that - getting slower the longer you ran it"... Can it run with the injector pump 180 degrees out?

I also agree the pistons, rings, and sleeves, are most likely going to have to be replaced. I suspect collapsed rings due to the cylinder walls looking OK.

So far I haven't been able to find any timing marks on the crankshaft pulley. I'll check again. Thanks for the tip on the timing pin and flywheel balancing holes.

Concerning the head and leak test, the head was completely rebuilt with new valves and seats installed by a very reputable local shop with lots of experience. The old seats and valves were badly worn so they machined out the head and installed new press-in seats, with new valves, etc. to original specs. It looks brand new!

It will be a week or so before I can work on the loader again - I'll keep you posted.

Do you have any tips or words of caution as I prepare to remove the pan and head (again) to replace the sleeves and pistons?

Any recommendations on parts and/or suppliers?

[LeonardL]

When I said you were possibly 180 degrees out, I suppose I should have said 360 Degrees. Rotate the fly wheel one complete revolution from where it is right now and see if your timing marks and valves are as they should be.
With that said... After reading what you just said about the history of this engine and or loader, it might be a good idea to start from scratch. It sounds like you did good on the head rebuild and that is at least one thing you know to be good. The reason I brought the rebuild up was because of some of these "Rebuilt" components that are anything but rebuilt.
I saw a cylinder head one time that had been "Rebuilt"..... I still laugh when I think about it. You being from Tennessee you will understand when I say... "The guy got Skint"! The valves were being held open from all the carbon that was built up on the stems as well as the guides were wore totally out and the seats were basically non existent. But it had just been rebuilt!!!
Your injector pump may well be partially out of time. From the way you describe the history... It is probably a good thing to re-do. It just sounds like this poor thing has been messed up pretty bad. I would yank it out and start over. That way you will know what you have.

As for as any tips on doing a engine rebuild, I would go ahead and pull the engine and get it out where you can do a really good job on everything. It's always easier to do these out on a bench or mounted in a good engine stand. I have done these in the frame and it is relatively easy to do. But I don't like laying on my back and having oil and coolant dripping on me the entire time! If you do decide to do it in frame, put it up on some good tie blocks where you will have room enough to work. Make sure you have all your hydraulics blocked and safe to be around.

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I do understand the skinning thing. I try to avoid getting skinned at all costs and I wear shoes most of the time too... (Joke - It seems a lot of people think folks from Tennessee only wear overalls, have toilets out back, and wear no shoes)

I really don't have a good place to pull the engine and very limited help. The Loader is sitting outside on my property 30 minutes from my home. I also have no way to lift the engine out of the loader - the head alone was a bear to get out of the frame!! Thank God my son was in from college on spring break last weekend to help put the head back on the engine!

I have no way to get the loader up on ties either.

Soooo, I plan to do the engine rebuild in the loader. I would prefer to pull the engine, but I just don't have the resources.

I have the hydraulics blocked.

Returning home at dark with a little grease and antifreeze in my hair reassures my wife that I'm actually working on something and not running around on her after work.

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Leonard L -- I was just thinking... You mentioned you thought I could be 360 Degrees out of time on the injection pump? I am most certain the #1 cylinder was on TDC on the compression stroke just before firing. I saw the intake valve open then close as I rotated the engine and found the timing hole. Shouldn't the engine be ready to fire and the injection pump timing marks aligned at that point?

[LeonardL]

To answer your question... Yes it should be ready to fire if all is in the order you described. If all of the timing marks are lined up and your valves are closed and the timing pin is in the flywheel then this should be in time for firing.

Now moving on to this... Being from our part of the world tends to pigeon hole the lot of us. If we talk different and live in the wooly hills then we don't have shoes, teeth, underwear, and we stink! Among other superlatives that associate us for being hillbillies!! And of course we have no education! And true enough we do fall short overall in that department. But!!!!! We are no worse than anyone else. Although we get ranked lower strictly because of our geographic location.
So far the only real difference I can find is we do talk a little different than say the good folks up North. It doesn't make any of us wrong or stupid! We are just a little different in the way we approach the English language. Be it North, South, East or West! We all talk funny!!
As a crow flies... ... I'm just across the Mississippi river from you. Here in my part of the Ozarks we ask people from up North of the Missouri river if they have their green cards to come south of the river! It usually brings out the best in their behavior when we ask them. I guess my point is, I try to find the best in everyone no matter where they hale from. Whether it be from the deep South or way up North.
You and I both know what a "Pig in a poke" is. People up North will look at us and say " Huh"!!
I better leave all of this alone and get back to you and your problem with the little loader. Besides that, Lavoy is liable to tell me to hush and move on!!! Sorry Lavoy............

It is becoming apparent to me that there is definitely something up with your loader! Everyone else here on the forum is thinking, " You Think!!"!! It also sounds as though you are really limited in what you can do because of where this thing is located.
So, your choices are either do this work out in the field or have it brought in to a shop. You definitely need to find you some help.
You can do this work right where it is, although it is going to be difficult. You really need to get this machine up off of the ground a little. Even with the skid pan and nose off, it will be a tight fit for you and the tools you need to get this done properly. To get it up on blocks means you will need a good jack to raise the machine up high enough to get the tie blocks under the track. You are looking at a lot of work!

I would consider what it would take to get the machine hauled in to a shop where you can do this work easier and safer. If not to a shop then at least where you can handle it better. There are people around with the capability to do this. Perhaps a contractor or a towing service. I would rather do a lot of work on finding this than trying to do a major overhaul out in the field.
If you don't have the resources to do this then maybe you will have to work on it where it is at. I've been there done that!! But I would certainly consider it if it is remotely possible.
I would try and get this managed and then we will work through the overhaul. It sounds like you have a mess! I'm personally sorry you have one. However before we can work through the issues of the problem, you need to get this thing to where you can work on it.
Good Luck!!