First of all I would like to thank everyone for the information that I have already used from this site. I was able to rebuild the steering clutches from crawler123’s post and found a lot of other great information from many other posters on the board. I don’t have a service manual yet but will download one before starting on this project. I did get an operator manual and have read it cover to cover and referred back many times.
I have a straight 450 loader with transmission oil getting in the clutch housing. I was mucking out a pond and returning after dumping and it started to slip in reverse. I put the reverser back in high and it seemed to move and turn fine. I shifted back to reverse and it slipped again. I stopped and checked the transmission oil and it was well below the safe level. I added oil and tried it again with the same result. I got it back to the shop and noticed a drip from the clutch housing where the cotter pin goes through the housing. I pulled the rubber plug on top of the housing and could see the housing was about half full of oil. I put a pan under the drip and it drained about a gallon of oil in two days. I thought that the engine clutch might be slipping from all of the oil so I sprayed two cans of brake cleaner in the access holes as I was turning the engine over. I checked the oil and tried to move it again and it still slipped in reverse. There was also a little more oil dripping from the cotter pin hole.
My question is where can oil get from the transmission to the clutch housing? It appears that I will need to pull the engine to get to anything. I’m OK with that but I would like to know what to look at when I get to that point. Thanks
Joe
straight 450 oil in clutch housing
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vestor_guy
- 440 crawler
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:48 am
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vestor_guy
- 440 crawler
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:48 am
The only access between the transmission and the clutch housing is the pilot shaft from the transmission and that is above the oil level.
The only other items that could leak oil in the clutch housing is the transmission pump. That transmission pump provides the pressure that operates the clutch and the transmission clutch packs.
Have you tried the crawler in both fwd Hi and LO? Reverse is a higher ratio than LO. Low pressure from the pump would cause the clutch packs to have low pressure and maybe slip. Slipping is not good and will damage the clutch packs. How long has it been slipping?
The only other items that could leak oil in the clutch housing is the transmission pump. That transmission pump provides the pressure that operates the clutch and the transmission clutch packs.
Have you tried the crawler in both fwd Hi and LO? Reverse is a higher ratio than LO. Low pressure from the pump would cause the clutch packs to have low pressure and maybe slip. Slipping is not good and will damage the clutch packs. How long has it been slipping?
vestor_guy I have not “operated” the loader after it started slipping, it started to slip in reverse on level ground. I tried forward and reverse a couple of times in both high and low and it seemed to work fine in forward but slip in reverse. I “drove” the loader in 3rd gear forward high to the shop, about 300 yards. At the shop I tried forward high and low and shifted form low to high on the move. I tried engaging the foot clutch with the bucket down and it killed the engine in forward but not reverse.
I have been working on a 4 to 1 slope to get the muck out of the pond. Is that enough of a slope for the oil to run into the clutch housing?
Now that I think about it the shift from low to high was a little more delayed than it was before the reverse problem started. I’ll have to hook up a gauge and check the pressure. Is 120 to 150 lbs correct for the pressure?
I have been working on a 4 to 1 slope to get the muck out of the pond. Is that enough of a slope for the oil to run into the clutch housing?
Now that I think about it the shift from low to high was a little more delayed than it was before the reverse problem started. I’ll have to hook up a gauge and check the pressure. Is 120 to 150 lbs correct for the pressure?
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vestor_guy
- 440 crawler
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:48 am
I downloaded the service manual Friday evening and did a little studying, but not enough.
I didn’t read through the pressure test thoroughly enough and just checked the pressure at idle. The pressure was 75 psi at idle and dropped off slightly and returned to 75 psi after shifting from high to low and from forward to reverse. What I did to get the pressure while engaged was pull the steering clutches back and blocked in the released position then shifted the reverser. I could hear the engine pull down slightly in all positions when a shift was made.
I would check the pressure at 2300 rpm as the book says but I removed the engine yesterday afternoon to look for the leak into the clutch housing. The good news is that I found this post today that describes the same leak (on a straight 350) that I have. http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... highlight=
The seal AT29365 and washer T19147 are the parts that I assume that I need to replace. I’ll check the end play that LenordL referred to this afternoon. I’m hoping that the mouse nest that was built in the clutch housing was the cause of the seal failure and not the bearing.
When I removed the engine I saw that the clutch spring (T33883) was broken. I don’t think this is the slipping problem because the return of the clutch pedal has not changed from when I bought the tractor. I think it has always been broken.
One other thing that I remembered was that the clutch adjustment bolt had backed out. When I was looking for problems when the tractor started slipping I noticed that the adjustment bolt was loose. The angle (T21154) had been replaced with a stack of washers with a lock nut on the adjustment bolt, at the yoke. I tightened the bolt to enough to where it just started to move the lever and tightened the jam nut. I plan to do the whole adjustment procedure when I get everything back together.
Does anyone know of anything else that I need to look for before putting this thing back together?
I didn’t read through the pressure test thoroughly enough and just checked the pressure at idle. The pressure was 75 psi at idle and dropped off slightly and returned to 75 psi after shifting from high to low and from forward to reverse. What I did to get the pressure while engaged was pull the steering clutches back and blocked in the released position then shifted the reverser. I could hear the engine pull down slightly in all positions when a shift was made.
I would check the pressure at 2300 rpm as the book says but I removed the engine yesterday afternoon to look for the leak into the clutch housing. The good news is that I found this post today that describes the same leak (on a straight 350) that I have. http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... highlight=
The seal AT29365 and washer T19147 are the parts that I assume that I need to replace. I’ll check the end play that LenordL referred to this afternoon. I’m hoping that the mouse nest that was built in the clutch housing was the cause of the seal failure and not the bearing.
When I removed the engine I saw that the clutch spring (T33883) was broken. I don’t think this is the slipping problem because the return of the clutch pedal has not changed from when I bought the tractor. I think it has always been broken.
One other thing that I remembered was that the clutch adjustment bolt had backed out. When I was looking for problems when the tractor started slipping I noticed that the adjustment bolt was loose. The angle (T21154) had been replaced with a stack of washers with a lock nut on the adjustment bolt, at the yoke. I tightened the bolt to enough to where it just started to move the lever and tightened the jam nut. I plan to do the whole adjustment procedure when I get everything back together.
Does anyone know of anything else that I need to look for before putting this thing back together?
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vestor_guy
- 440 crawler
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:48 am
Thanks vestor,
I planed to clean the clutch with brake cleaner before going back together.
I took the clutch housing off to access the pump and front seal. That’s a tough job with the loader frame in the way, but I got it done. I ordered the parts today.
There is still one thing that troubles me, the reverse slipping problem that started all of this. I’m still not sure what caused the slipping. I know that I should have checked the pressure per the manual but I can’t do that without reassembling the tractor. If I need to disassemble the transmission it would be easier to do with everything else out of the tractor.
I was looking through the manual and searching this site trying to figure out what would cause the slippage in reverse only. One thing that I came up with was a blown seal in the clutch pack. BUT wouldn’t the pressure drop off in reverse if the seal was bad? The other thing that I have read on this site was glazing of the reverse clutch disks. Most of the time, the glazing is caused by excessive slipping. There really wasn’t much slipping but the tractor was under a heavy load when backing out of the pond. It backed out fine and after I dumped and backed up about 20 feet the slipping started.
Would glazing disks cause it to slip the way it did?
Should I put it back together and test the pressure then?
Is there anything else that I could check before reassembly?
Sorry for all of the rambling, I’m just looking for a second opinion.
I planed to clean the clutch with brake cleaner before going back together.
I took the clutch housing off to access the pump and front seal. That’s a tough job with the loader frame in the way, but I got it done. I ordered the parts today.
There is still one thing that troubles me, the reverse slipping problem that started all of this. I’m still not sure what caused the slipping. I know that I should have checked the pressure per the manual but I can’t do that without reassembling the tractor. If I need to disassemble the transmission it would be easier to do with everything else out of the tractor.
I was looking through the manual and searching this site trying to figure out what would cause the slippage in reverse only. One thing that I came up with was a blown seal in the clutch pack. BUT wouldn’t the pressure drop off in reverse if the seal was bad? The other thing that I have read on this site was glazing of the reverse clutch disks. Most of the time, the glazing is caused by excessive slipping. There really wasn’t much slipping but the tractor was under a heavy load when backing out of the pond. It backed out fine and after I dumped and backed up about 20 feet the slipping started.
Would glazing disks cause it to slip the way it did?
Should I put it back together and test the pressure then?
Is there anything else that I could check before reassembly?
Sorry for all of the rambling, I’m just looking for a second opinion.
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vestor_guy
- 440 crawler
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:48 am
Actually it is more unkikely that two differnt problem happen at the same time.
All it takes to close the disk pack is about 55 psi so I think you have enough pressure for the packs to work good.
When you were cleaning the pond, did you just use the hLR or at some point did you use the manual clutch? With all the oil in the housing, when you first depress the clutch, it is going to soak the disk. I also don't know if I would rely on the disk with just cleaning it.
Someone else might be more familiar with cleaning clutch plates.
I might be tempted to put it back together and see what you have.
All it takes to close the disk pack is about 55 psi so I think you have enough pressure for the packs to work good.
When you were cleaning the pond, did you just use the hLR or at some point did you use the manual clutch? With all the oil in the housing, when you first depress the clutch, it is going to soak the disk. I also don't know if I would rely on the disk with just cleaning it.
Someone else might be more familiar with cleaning clutch plates.
I might be tempted to put it back together and see what you have.
I used the clutch 90% of the time while in the pond. I didn’t want to get the thing stuck in the muck so I stopped the tractor with the manual clutch when it started to pull down from the load in the bucket then shifted the HLR to reverse and let out the clutch to back up the slope. A few times there was a delay of 3 or 4 seconds before the tracks started turning but when it engaged it was locked with no slipping. It did pull the engine down some when I let out the manual clutch, during that 3 to 4 second delay. I guess that could have been the manual clutch slipping then engaging.
Your thoughts?
Joe
Your thoughts?
Joe
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vestor_guy
- 440 crawler
- Posts: 129
- Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:48 am
How low did the transmission get during this evolution? 3 to 4 seconds to engage the shift is WAY too long and sounds like you lost oil pressure to the clutch packs. How did the seal look on the input shaft because that is a lot of oil to leak by a seal. I would take a real good look at that transmisson gear pump.
When it started slipping the first thing that I did was check the oil level. It was still on the stick and I added about 1 ½ gallons. That brought it up to full. I don’t remember that 3 or 4 second delay until the last ½ to 1 hour of running.
I know that I added oil to the transmission one time before. I’m not sure how many hours I ran after I topped it off, maybe 8 to 10. I didn’t check the transmission oil (before I ran it) on the day of the breakdown.
When I pulled the pump off and inspected it all seemed tight. There was no excessive clearance or groves in the gears, the o-ring was compressed like it should be with no gouges and the seal looked OK but it’s hard to tell with seals. It could be stretched but the seal was not torn or gouged. I did not check to see if it was brittle. There was a very slight groove on the shaft but not enough to catch with a fingernail.
Joe
I know that I added oil to the transmission one time before. I’m not sure how many hours I ran after I topped it off, maybe 8 to 10. I didn’t check the transmission oil (before I ran it) on the day of the breakdown.
When I pulled the pump off and inspected it all seemed tight. There was no excessive clearance or groves in the gears, the o-ring was compressed like it should be with no gouges and the seal looked OK but it’s hard to tell with seals. It could be stretched but the seal was not torn or gouged. I did not check to see if it was brittle. There was a very slight groove on the shaft but not enough to catch with a fingernail.
Joe
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