straight 450 oil in clutch housing

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vestor_guy
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Post by vestor_guy » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:57 am

You should have transmission prssure of 140 psi. If you do not and shims on the transmission pumps does not increase the pressure, then you have a leak somewhere.

I would still be concerned about the transmission pump. It is right there in the clutch housing and could be the source of the leak.

oljoe
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Post by oljoe » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:01 pm

I wiggled the transmission input shaft when I had the motor out. It had a very sight amount of end play, no more than a few thousands. I don’t remember there being any side to side play in the shaft but I will check it more thoroughly when I pull the motor this winter. I replaced both the input shaft seal and the pump housing seal or “washer” as it is called in the parts manual. The transmission pressure was in the 150 to 160 range after I got it reassembled so I think it is good.
Jason, after running the loader for awhile I think the slipping was a figment of my imagination. The delay in shifting from forward to reverse may have had me fooled. It takes a second or two for the shift to take place with no creeping when first shifted. The loader will spin the tracks or kill the motor when loading the bucket if I push it that hard.
The oil leak is my main concern. It will eventually fill the clutch housing to a point where the flywheel will start throwing oil out of the timing access plate.
I guess I’m trying to get some ideas where to look when I get the motor removed. Are there any other places where the oil can get into the clutch housing other than the seals on the pump and input shaft?
Thanks,
Joe

john450
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oil in bell housing

Post by john450 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:07 pm

I just solved a problem with oil filling the bell housing to a point where it got into the starter and wiped out the starter.
My 450 always leaked oil from the transmission into the bell housing then a few years ago I stopped noticing the leaky trail on the ground but I still needed to keep adding oil to the transmission. I didn't put 2 & 2 together until the starter kept filling with oil. I at first thought it was coming from the rear seal of the engine then I remembered reading somewhere about a WEEP hole in the bottom of the transmission that is put there from the factory to drain drippings from the transmission and a cotter pin is in that hole to aid in capillary action.
Well that is what was causing the oil to build up in my bell housing,the weep hole was plugged solid. When I finally located where the hole was and unplugged it about 2 or more gallons of oil drained out over 2+ weeks.
The transmission leak is on the project list but at least the machine still does its work if I keep it supplied with oil and diesel.

oljoe
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update oil in clutch housing

Post by oljoe » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:40 am

Here is an update on the transmission leak. I finally pulled the engine and checked the input shaft, seal and bearing. Everything was good. No slop in the bearings.
I decided that I needed to spin the input shaft to build pressure in the pump because the leak would only show up when the engine was running.
I cleaned everything with brake clean and let it dry. I tried a ½ inch drill attached to a piece of hose that I slid over the input shaft, but the drill would pull down and it started getting hot so I scrapped that idea. Next I tried a 12 volt motor (like a starter motor) that was used to start go-cart engines but it didn’t have enough torque and would stall when the pump pressure came up. My neighbor came up with the idea of running a drive shaft from the input shaft to the rear wheel of a pickup. That would have required the pickup to be raised up 3 or4 feet to line up with the input shaft so I used my tractor instead. I found a 2 inch pipe about the right length, welded a plate with holes to fit the lug bolt pattern on one end and used the hose to fit over the input shaft on the other. I locked one brake on the tractor and started spinning the manufactured drive shaft while my neighbor watched for leaks. The leak finally showed up after about 10 minuets of spinning. The leak was between the transmission front cover and the transmission case where the pressure adjustment valve is located.
I pulled the front cover off and found that someone had used blue silicone to seal the front cover instead of a gasket. The silicone had blown out and allowed the oil to come out under pressure.
I finished putting the thing back together last night and will give it a try this weekend.
Wish me luck.

Joe

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DrLoch
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Post by DrLoch » Sat Aug 10, 2013 6:16 am

Interesting read, like how you were able to spin the input, great idea.... What were the results?
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oljoe
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Post by oljoe » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:20 am

Everything didn’t go as I had hoped. When I got the loader back together the left steering clutch and brake was frozen. I put the loader in gear and let the clutch out and the brake came free. Great. :)

That’s when I found the steering clutch was frozen also. I was able to move it to an area where I could turn back and forth and the steering clutch came free. Great #2. :)

I then drove the loader, in third gear, just above idle, about 500 feet to a pile of dirt to run it and check for leaks. When I got to the dirt pile I shifted the HLR to neutral and got off of the loader to look for leaks. No leaks. Great #3. :)

I climbed back on and depressed the master clutch and shifted the HLR to high, let out the clutch and nothing happened. It didn’t move. It didn’t even wiggle. Bad. :(

I shifted the HLR to low with no result then to reverse, same. I shut down and checked the linkage and oil level. Everything looked good. I climbed back on, started it and shifted to high without the clutch and it slooooly started moving, then seemed like the clutches applied and I headed to the shop. I noticed an on and off buzzing sound coming from the transmission
but couldn’t pinpoint the location.

When I got back to the shop I shifted the HLR to reverse and was able to back onto the slab, where I had been working. I got off and tried to find the source of the buzzing noise. It seemed to be coming from the front of the transmission around the pressure valve. I attached a pressure gage to the transmission and started the machine. The pressure came up to 130 psi as soon as it started and then started to fluctuate between 130 psi and about 40 psi. I noticed that the fluctuation corresponded with the buzzing noise that I was hearing so I decided to raise the pressure to see if that helped. I had some extra shims so I put 3 in and checked the pressure again. That raised the pressure to 150 psi on the high side and remained 40 psi on the low side. When I depressed the clutch the pressure dropped to about 20 psi. When I shifted the HLR the pressure would drop to about 30 psi. The buzzing continued with the clutch in or out and it didn’t seem to change when I shifted the HLR. I adjusted the clutch, again, using the service manual (just to make sure I had done it right the first time). I then pulled the loader off of the slab and drove it up and down the driveway, shifting from high to reverse, using and not using the clutch. The longer I ran the slower the shifts were. I decided to pull back on the slab. When I turned to line up with the slab I pushed the clutch in, shifted to reverse, let the clutch out and it wouldn’t move. There was no forward or reverse. I let it cool down for an hour and it still wouldn’t move.

I must have done something wrong when I reassembled the machine.
I guess I’ll have to pull the engine out and find the problem.
Unless anyone has a better plan.
Joe

oljoe
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Post by oljoe » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:46 pm

Here is an update. I pulled the engine, clutch housing and front cover yesterday. Everything seemed to be OK. The spring for the oil cooler bypass valve was in the right hole and the valve was not binding. That is where I thought the problem was going to be. I’m not sure where to look from here.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks
Joe

oljoe
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Post by oljoe » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:10 am

WOW over 200 views since I last posted and no suggestions.
I decided to pull the top cover off of the transmission last night. On initial inspection everything looked fine. I thought that maybe the oil supply line might be partially plugged so I removed the lines to blow them out. I removed the short line so I could get to the longer supply line and it was clean. I removed the fitting for the longer line from the accumulator. The fitting seemed loose on the line but I figured out that is how it is designed.
When the line is pressurized a rubber seal in the fitting keeps it from leaking.
I removed the fitting where it is screwed into the case and removed the line. When I pulled it out of the case I found it had cracked, nearly all of the way through, where there was a factory bend. I brazed the line and will start reassembly tonight. I’ll let you know how it goes.
Joe

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Paul Buhler
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Post by Paul Buhler » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:52 pm

Good luck with your next steps. Your sharing in detail how you are working through your challenges will help some one else at some point too.
We've all have had persistent (read pita) problems that have cost time, money and frustration. Sounds like you're closer to a solution.

BTW, it's been nice reading the helpful comments offered by others too.
Last edited by Paul Buhler on Sat Jun 04, 2016 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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oljoe
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Post by oljoe » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:14 pm

Thanks to everyone for all of the help with this loader.

I got the loader reassembled over the weekend. When I mounted the clutch housing I let the clutch adjustment bolt fall and it bound up against the transmission pump. I had to pull it back off to get the bolt where it needed to be then set it back on with the bolt lined up.

On a loader the clutch housing is a real bear to remove and install. There is no way to get anything to lift it with the console in the way so I had to manhandle it in and out. The other thing that I found difficult was to remove the clutch pedal. The clutch shaft that runs through the housing has to be pushed into the housing to give room to slide the pedal off of the shaft. I made a curved pry bar from an old tire iron to push the shaft in far enough to get the pedal off. To get the shaft back out there is a ¼ threaded hole in the end of the shaft that I was able to get a bolt in and use as a puller of sorts. I used washers on the bolt that were larger than the shaft, placed the pedal on and tightened the bolt to pull the shaft out. When I ran out of room I used a pry bar to pull the rest of the way. The book just says to slide the shaft in but doesn’t give a method to get it back out. I hope this helps someone if they have to struggle through this.

Anyway, I got the clutch housing in, the engine in, everything hooked up, adjusted the clutch and filled it with oil. When I hit the key it started right up. There was no creep or movement while the HLR was in neutral so I crawled on and gave it a try. It went forward. It went backward. It turned left and right. It even stopped when I stepped on the clutch and the brakes. I guess it’s time to go to work. :wink:

Joe

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DrLoch
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Post by DrLoch » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:34 am

It appears you had success... Thank you for the details in between so other may learn.
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DWSchwefel
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Your Project

Post by DWSchwefel » Tue May 10, 2016 9:14 pm

What a good thread, good detail. Thanks for all the good info.!!

I have an 84 450D with a clutch housing oil problem, along with many other problems.


DaveS

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DrLoch
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Post by DrLoch » Sat Jun 04, 2016 5:33 am

Since you had the engine in and out a number of times while you were working on your issue,. Do you by chance remember where the hole and cotter pin were in the bell/clutch housing? Mine has put oil into the bell/clutch housing and isn't draining out.

I'm hoping to find the drain hole and clearing it without removing the belly pan.
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pondhogvt
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450 transmission

Post by pondhogvt » Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:48 pm

Dr. Loch, the drain hole is in the very bottom of the housing with a cotter pin in it..where the clutch housing meets the tranny.. it really is to small as any rust or build up will plug it.. the idea is that the cotter pin rattling around will keep it clear,, but rust usually freezes up the pin so it doesn't move and then stuff starts to accumulate..

the split end of the cotter pin is usually the end sticking down on the outside of the housing so sometimes you can put pliers and just twist and turn it to let out any fluid,, but if you have rust and some worn clutch fibers mixed with oil or grease it will not drain..

recommend drilling out to a bigger diameter hole.

best regards Mark
350 loader,350c dozer winch and arch,450c winch and arch,450e winch and arch,D37p komatsu lgp dozer,D85 Komatsu dozer,D8k Caterpillar.

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DrLoch
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Post by DrLoch » Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:28 am

Thanks Mark. Will look in the are you described and open up the hole.
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