water in oil on my 450b

warr3np3t3 · Post by **warr3np3t3** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:35 am

i am a newbie to the dozer scene / i just bought a mid 70's 450b that was running great when i got it home / worked it several days & then one day it died like some one turned off the ignition / no coughing or sputtering before it died / just stopped / tried several things to get it started like fuel filters etc / while cranking it water shot out the exhaust / after several words i pulled the dipstick & saw water in the oil / very milky / i need to know what to do next / several people say pull the head & check gasket / i have done my share of mechanic work & could do this but i do not have the desire to do so / my question is the dozer worth repairing or do i cut my losses & sell for parts & what would be a fair price / as i said dozer was working fine till then / PLEASE HELP
pete

switchhappy · Post by **switchhappy** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:00 pm

yea kinda sounds like a head gasket or mabe crack head or sleave.. id deff start by pulling head off and checking checking gasket for blow out spots, and look over the head real good and go have the head checked... that would be the first on my list.. after the head is off u should see what cylender is getting water in it..and as far as worth it.. u gotta ask your self that question.....shouldent be to bad of a job to pull head, just my 2 cents.. sure others will give u more advice

warr3np3t3 · Post by **warr3np3t3** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:18 pm

thanks for ur help/ i will pull off head & go from there
pete

digitup2 · Post by **digitup2** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:31 pm

Don't pull the head remove the oil pan the sleeves will eat out on the motor so pull the pan and see if the water is from the lower o ring seal on the sleeve I know that sounds like bad news but all newer diesels have that issue from time to time ,Digitup.

warr3np3t3 · Post by **warr3np3t3** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:54 pm

I do not understand /why drop the pan / i thought i had to pull head
Thanks
Pere

switchhappy · Post by **switchhappy** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:42 pm

belive what he is saying is that the o rings in the sleaves fail time to time and by pulling the pan u would see what cylender is leaking water if it is the sleve....eather way u gotta pull the head to replace sleave or a i just total wrong......

Scottyb · Post by **Scottyb** » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:33 pm

warr3np3t3,
Just thought I would reply with a note of encouragement, as in your original post you asked if the crawler "is worth repairing or should I cut my losses"
The 450 engine is the one part of that machine that if you are going to have a problem, better to have it there. Reverser, transmissions and undercarriages can be much bigger problems for sure. Members on this forum will tell you that that engine comes out fairly easily in just a few hours, and complete rebuild kits (sleeves, pistons, gaskets, and bearings etc) are easily available for around $1000. You do not have to buy the whole kit, individual parts are all available. Talk to Lavoy once you know what your problem is, he owns this site and sells quality parts at fair prices.
If you are confident that you have a good all around crawler, then it IS worth fixing. Dig in and find that engine problem. Do yourself a favor, and give it a good pressure wash first!
Scott

warr3np3t3 · Post by **warr3np3t3** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:35 am

thanks
i will try to tackle it this week sometime
pete

vestor_guy · Post by **vestor_guy** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:55 pm

It is not just an oring that can fail on the sleeve, the sleeve can actually have a hole in it. Deere has two sleeves that were in that engine. The one for a turbo had a thicker sleeve so I expect you have the non turbo sleeve. When I once overhauled a 450 loader, one of the sleeves was really close to eating a hole clear through. The erosion is caused by cavitation.

Thats why he said to drop the pan. That is a lot of work since the crawler probably has the heavy pan to drop even before you get to the oil pan.

If it was my tractor, I would have to evaluate the condition of the rest of the tractor. If the rest has a ton of wear that needs work, I would think the engine might be a killer item. You could look to get a rebuilt engine and see if that would fit your budget.

IMO, this is more than a head gasket. It is a massive leak that could be a hole in the cylinder sleeve. When those get thin and the compression blows them out, there is a large hole.

warr3np3t3 · Post by **warr3np3t3** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:19 pm

thanks to everybody who replied to my help / well i pulled the head today & could not see any blow out marks or even any small cracks in the gasket / i did notice that the fuel injector was loose / right now i am thinking " what the hell was i thinking" / i would appreciate any help on my next step
thanks
pete

Scottyb · Post by **Scottyb** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:07 pm

The pan is likely your next step, as you have not found the answer yet.
For the exhaust to have water coming out, (steam?) then water needs to get into the cylinder somewhere. If the head gasket is ok then be sure to turn the engine over and check the sleeves down deep for a possible rust hole, or for signs of water getting around the piston from a hole below the top of a piston when at the bottom.

It is looking more and more like the sleeve seals are going to be your problem. The head had to come off anyway for that fix so no harm done.

I am trying to recall that when I changed the gasket on my 350b water pump rebuild, if a gasket failure there creates a possibility for water to get into the oil that way?

Perhaps one of the other members could give some comments on that, I think it is also a possibility.

Scott

vestor_guy · Post by **vestor_guy** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:26 pm

Scott, water was coming out of the exhaust. Water has to be getting into the head or cylinder. I think water in the oil is from broken rings. For your crawler to stop running, you had to have a LOT of water in the cylinder so I still think you have a hole in the sleeve. Crank the engine over and check each of the cylinder sleeves. I would begin by checking that sleeve in the cylinder that had the loose injector. You get a cylinder full of water and it does not compress and would break the rings and just might loosen the injector.

warr3np3t3 · Post by **warr3np3t3** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:30 am

Well at this point i guess i am looking at a total engine rebuild or another engine / where would i find a good used engine or can i sell the crawler for parts / i am not a great mechanic so my options r limited
Thanks
Pete

Scottyb · Post by **Scottyb** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:07 am

Pete, contact a local engine rebuild shop for quotes. If you can get the engine out, clean it up and take it in to someone. Ask around or advertise for guys working from their home shops. You might get it done for 2-3000. Then put it in and you will be good to go. You might find a hobby/retired/ambitious mechanic in the process that will help you keep your Deere running for the long term.

Scott

vestor_guy · Post by **vestor_guy** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:16 am

If you buy a manual, it is easy to follow and quite detailed. You will probably have about $2000 in parts plus the head rebuild. If you don't want to pull the engine and if the tractor is for hobby use, you could just drop the pan and replace the rod bearings liners and pistons. Deere sells a kit with the liners, rings and piston for $200 each. You could get by with about a grand plus the head rebuild for a patch that would get you running fairly quickly without the need to pull the engine.

I did a quick one like that in the field on a 450 once to get it running. It ran great. What you do depends upon what you plan for the crawler. If you decide to go this route, let me know and I will give you some more tips I learned.

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