Roosa-Master governor quit working....

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little1406
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Roosa-Master governor quit working....

Post by little1406 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:20 pm

Howdy Esteemed Experts,

My 1968 JD450 track loader has been getting a workout lately. I'm digging a pond deeper. Yesterday AM, I go out and get on it and, first, it's hard to start. Next, I notice that the throttle doesn't change engine speed the way it used to.....it's just not very linear any more. Speed seems to stay med-high almost until I get the engine shut off. But, when digging, it becomes apparent that the governor is no longer working. Instead of the engine giving it all it's got when the going gets tough, it just bogs way down and I have to open the throttle to get "all it's got". It stays that way all day and I become depressed. The governor is something you don't realize you need until it's gone.

This morning, however, she starts up promptly and it appears that the governor is working again.

Checking the service manual, I see that the governor on the diesel is internal fly weights in the injector pump.....that sounds like trouble and/or money.

Any ideas?
Scott Little
Dale TX

JD 450 w/ backhoe attachment

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LeonardL
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Post by LeonardL » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:42 pm

I would guess that the flex ring is about to give it up in your pump. You need to stop now before you do some real damage to the pump. This is one area where I am no expert but I do have enough knowledge to know you need to quit now. If you have some mechanical ability you can replace this ring yourself. But if you don't, then it may be something you will want a pro to look at.
40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.

little1406
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Post by little1406 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:40 pm

Thanks Leonard,

I got a copy of the Roosa-Master service manual (SM2045). Mine is a Model C and, as far as I can tell, doesn't have anything called a "flex plate".

Instead, the governor is a compact little gadget with flyweights at the forward end that push rearward on a linear-moving metering valve to close off the fuel flow. The throttle lever pushes the other way on the same valve via a coil spring to open up the fuel flow.

This AM, I did something a bit different when starting that may explain the improvement I obeserved. I "floored" it before cranking the engine. I've never done that before. I imagine that the metering valve slider thingy was just stuck yesterday and that flooring it this AM freed it up for proper operation again. In the troubleshooting section of SM2045, they do mention sticking governor parts as a cause of governor malfunction.

Man, this little pump is a complicated beast. I sure hope it doesn't break seriously.

BTW, I am a competent mechanic and engineer but with little actual experience with track machines and/or diesels.

Scott
Scott Little
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LeonardL
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Post by LeonardL » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:05 pm

Okay... sounds like you're on top of it. Where I worked we were never allowed to go inside the Injector pumps. That's why I don't have much experience with them other than pulling them and replacing them. Now that I have been in a couple of them I would like to know why they didn't want us working on the things. We could have saved a ton of money by doing so.
Most of the Deere machines we had, all had the DB OR JDB pumps. They have a flex ring that attaches the governor weight housing to the drive shaft. Stanadyne now has a solid replacement that is supposed to eliminate a lot of problems. Namely the flex ring deterioration issue. But when you look at it, most of theses rings don't give issues until they are several years old with tons of hours on them before they give it up. So, is it really a bad design?
Depending on who you talk to, some re-builders love the replacement one piece mechanism and others say no, the pumps need to have the flex ring to keep vibration away from the governor housing. I guess time will tell who is right on the issue.
So, I hope you have your issue sorted out. Good luck with it! :D
40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.

oljoe
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Post by oljoe » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:06 pm

I have been into several of those pumps but only one that was on a John Deere. Ford used the same pump design on the early model diesel pickup engines. The flex ring that Leonard is talking about is a flexible plastic looking ring that attaches to rivets on the pump and governor. The ring will deteriorate over time and pieces of the ring will plug the fuel passages and cause the engine to run poorly. The engine may keep running because the rivets fit into slots that will keep the governor turning. If the ring is not replaced the rivets will wear off and then the governor will not work.

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MattE
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Post by MattE » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:40 pm

I've got a new weight retainer with new flex ring if you want it.

I upgraded my pump with the one piece design when I rebuilt it last year.

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Post by KenP » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:26 pm

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little1406
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Post by little1406 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:12 am

Thanks, KenP, I was about to despair of looking for a flex ring in the Model C service manual....:)

BTW, my governor is not fixed. I ran the machine yesterday again and maybe it worked a little when cold but once I got going properly it was clear that the governor does not work at all anymore. The throttle still works OK but there's just no automatic speed control. The flyweight mechanism must be stuck.....or maybe it's not even turning anymore!

Looking around the internet, this Model C Roosa-Master is not a very common pump. I have not found a used/rebuilt one yet.

Studying the service manual, this thing is a bear to get back together right....several special tools and gauges required....or at least recommended.

Does anybody here have a pump like this?....or know where I can get one?....or have any encouraging words for a do-it-yourself teardown without all the special tools?

Thanks in advance for sharing your extensive experience.

Scott
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Lavoy
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Post by Lavoy » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:28 am

Any good injection shop should be able to rebuild it for you. If not, I can get you a rebuilt, last I knew about $800/exchange.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
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jtrichard
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Post by jtrichard » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:33 am

have you looked at the pump to confirm its a "C" pump? ..... if you go on eBay look for "roosa master pump" there is a couple of re-builders on there
2010 with 622 dozer with mod. 35 ripper and a 2010 with 622 dozer bought in 1969 and a 2010 loader with drott and mod. 36 ripper

little1406
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Post by little1406 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:29 am

Thanks again, gang.

Finally getting serious about looking at the tag on the pump, it's a CBC 431 3AL. Searching around the internet, I found an old thread on this forum started by KenP that led mainly to sorta bad news for owners of this pump needing repair. I can't imagine the situation is better now, 5 years later.

BTW, what does it mean if the s/n tags on the engine components are painted over with yellow paint? Repaint? or was that a factory practice?

Anyway, since my problem is the governor and this pump is apparently now rare, I'm starting to lean towards a careful DIY approach. I do have a pretty complete machine shop and a fair track record at difficult repairs.

How about the conversion to a different pump? Is that still an option?

Scott
Scott Little
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JD 450 w/ backhoe attachment

KenP
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Post by KenP » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:12 am

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LeonardL
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Post by LeonardL » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:52 am

Ken has given you some very sound advice. I would heed this advice as being some very wise counsel.
There is a tendency on this forum for people to subject themselves to the negative. It seems there is a negative connotation to this "C" series pump, among other things. I have talked to or corresponded with enough knowledgeable people on these pumps to know they are a very good pump and if you can get them re-built you are the better for it. That's my twenty nine cents worth... Good luck!! :D
40 plus years working on JD 350s, 400Gs, 450s and other equipment both Ag and Construction.

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Tigerhaze
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Post by Tigerhaze » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:53 pm

Most of the "negative" posts I saw regarding the C-series pumps was not regarding the reliability or durability of those pumps, but rather lack of new parts to rebuild them.
(1) JD Straight 450 crawler dozer with manual outside blade; (2) JD 2010 diesel crawler loaders; (1) JD 2010 diesel dozer with hydraulic 6-way blade; (2) Model 50 backhoe attachments, misc. other construction equipment

little1406
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Post by little1406 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:57 pm

That's what it was, Tigerhaze. Ken makes a really good point. My CBC has worked just fine for 45 years. It's a great pump!
Scott Little
Dale TX

JD 450 w/ backhoe attachment

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