450c Rollover Slope

clarence · Post by **clarence** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:29 am

Guys, I have a 450C that is used mostly on steep hillside terrains. Does anyone know the maximum slope that it can operate before it rolls over? (That is a 0 slope being level and a vertical slope being 100%). It feels fine at about a 40% slope but at 50% I get nervous as all get out going very slow but I've yet to roll it. It has a higher center of gravity than our other equipment but it's never got close to going over yet I remain concerned. Any advice from your collective wisdom will be deeply appreciated. Thanks so much, Clarence

Tigerhaze · Post by **Tigerhaze** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:29 am

I don't know if you have a dozer or loader, but dozers can be run on pretty steep slopes. Part of my job is to oversee cleanup of abandoned mine sites and have seen D8s work slopes as steep as 45 degrees.

I don't know about Deere, but Caterpillar issues a specifications handbook for all of their major equipment (it's called the Caterpillar Performance Handbook) that includes extreme slope operations. They list the maximum operating slope as 45 degrees (100%) not so much for safety, but that is the point at which you can potentially starve powertrain lubrication from lack of oil pickup. If you aren't concerned about oil starvation and are needing to run steeper slopes you can have an engineer do a number of calculations to determine rollover slope- it's a statics and dynamics calculation.

Personally I would not run slopes steeper than 45 degrees. It's probably something you are aware of, but when running those types of slopes you should always run directly up and down the slope, and not try to run cross slope or bad things will happen.

clarence · Post by **clarence** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:39 pm

Thanks Tigerhaze, It's a 450c Loader and yes we usually only travel up and down the slope with the loader bucket leading the way and rarely across the grain but sometimes we can't help it and that's when I really get uneasy. Plus the low reverse gear is higher geared than the forward low gear and sometimes the slope is so steep that we can only drive up in forward gear because reverse gear is too high and it stalls out--not a great design but I understand the reasoning for it I think. Thanks again for the insights. Clarence

Tigerhaze · Post by **Tigerhaze** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:26 am

You'll also want to keep the loader boom and bucket as close to the ground as possibile; besides lowering your center of gravity it also allows you to dig the bucket in if you start sliding. You probably knew that as well but thought I would mention for others reading this.

If I run across any Deere literature on extreme slope operation, I'll post it up.

Paul Buhler · Post by **Paul Buhler** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:57 pm

I've worked 450s and other machines on very steep ski slopes. A concern is getting a loose stone/ stump/etc under one track which will spin you sideways quickly potentially causing a flip. With a backhoe/loader we would often pick up some material in either or both buckets to better balance the machine to get to some destination. When working on iffy terrain we'd tether to a bigger machine and work off the bigger machines winch - kept the pucker factor in the reasonable range. This allowed us to dig lift tower foundation holes for example. When grading with a blade, we generally worked at a slight diagonal from uphill to downhill so the finished area was above and a windrow (berm) of worked material was on the low side to keep sideways slides to a minimum. On really steep terrain we'd build a switchback road diagonally down hill and "lose" material down hill gradually having the road migrate down the slope - this was not an enjoyed option because parts of the "road" might cross ledge and all of a sudden your road had no more workable material to support the machine comfortably.
Happily I had a lot of experienced people sharing their wisdom when I was learning to do this kind of work and I only experienced a few "exciting" moments.
Work slowly, and if a situation seems too risky, it probably is, so you'll need some help in some form - advise, additional preparation, machine modifications, a tether machine, or who knows what. Unfortunately I know some people who tended to be "bulls" who have had significant injuries by not evaluating the risks appropriately.

There are others on this board who are still working machines every day and I'm sure they can share some of the amazing things that can be done in some pretty awful conditions with planning, care, and a sound machine.

Good luck solving your challenge - it's very rewarding and satisfying when you do.

I love skiing down some of the double black diamond trails that I helped build. Paul

scampr · Post by **scampr** » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:43 pm

Having done my share on tracks on ski slopes i sure know what you mean by pucker factor for sure...lol Having 2 boards strapped on my feel on black diamonds is sure a lot more fun then skating sideways on ice skating groused...lol

vestor_guy · Post by **vestor_guy** » Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:44 am

Years ago, a gun club bought a 450B to do small cleanup around the range. It had limb risers but no brush guards. A friend of mine did a lot of mechanical work on the tractor and enjoyed running it. I cautioned him one day to always fasten his seat belt. Well, a couple years later, he told me a story of cutting a hillside to increase the width of an access road. He had to begin about 25 ft high and cut to a 45 degree slope. He was pushing the loose material over the edge to the roadway below. He soon had the loose dirt up to the level of the cut and got a track out in the loose stuff. Over he went in a flash. Did one complete roll and the crawler ended up in the roadway below upright on the tracks with the engine running with zero visibility in a cloud of dust. The top of the canopy was caved in a bit but no other damage at all. He lost his glasses and got a bruise on his forearm but otherwise unhurt. He was glad he had his seatbelt fastened. The next day, he was back pushing but a lot more careful.

Tigerhaze · Post by **Tigerhaze** » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:39 am

Yikes- I can't even imagine just having bruises after rolling a crawler, especially with just a lap belt.

clarence · Post by **clarence** » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:14 pm

Thanks again guys, Your collective wisdom is awesome and so helpful and I so appreciate your replies. Yes, on hillsides I always keep the bucket as low to the ground as possible thereby lowering the center of gravity, I work slowly and I can't imagine running it without a seatbelt since we have a ROPS.

As a side comment, my brother in law is a retired heavy equipment mechanic in Montana who worked in the logging industry and he's seen many rollovers, as one might imagine. He says it's not the rolling over that usually kills or seriously injures a driver but being impaled by something on the ground as the rig is going over.

I can't imagine rolling it and then getting back into it the next day for more work--I'd likely need more than a day or two to settle down. Thank you again for all of your sage advice, Clarence

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