1980 450c engine timing problem

steellhead · Post by **steellhead** » Fri May 23, 2014 7:51 am

Hi, need help with 4-219t engine.
My fathers loader, so bare with me. He replaced injector pump and is sure everything is lined up properly, the loader starts very slowly and then starts to rev like crazy? He thinks the engine timing jumped a tooth and was wanting to know where no.1 cylinder is, so he can check timing of engine and go from there.
BTW great site and TIA, Frank

DrLoch · Post by **DrLoch** » Sat May 24, 2014 7:20 am

That doesn't sound like a timing issue, it sounds like an issue with the load control governor inside the pump. That is what controls the engine speed for a given throttle position. Generally that is what goes wrong with these pumps. search for "mouse turds" and you'll see a number of postings on the subject.
I assuming you had the injector pump rebuilt? I'm also assuming that he looked at the end of the shaft and saw the little dot and just lined the new one with the old ones position, correct? If he was off he would have been off by 180 degrees and the motor wouldn't have started. Hopefully he replaced the umbrella seals on the shaft and compressed them before installing the pump or he's going to have a new problem, oil level rising. There is a recent post about that here also.

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... php?t=9308

steellhead · Post by **steellhead** » Sat May 24, 2014 1:04 pm

DrLoch, yes pump was exchanged for reman.
I thinks you be correct about the 180 degrees off of time.
And yes you are right about not starting when out of time, but old guy kept manually pumping and forced it to eventually fire up from filling cylinders with fuel. I intially thought he had told me it fired up on it's own.
So, with that knowledge I've told him to try anther 180 degree turn and get back to me.
Also wanted to say thanks for the extra info about the seals, old guy say's he already new about that part and said pump came with the proper seals and tool for install.
Will let you know how it turned out, and have a great day.

DrLoch · Post by **DrLoch** » Sat May 24, 2014 5:42 pm

Right now the only way to make sure it's timed correctly is to remove the rocker cover and look at the valves and insert the pin into the flywheel. On the left side of the engine toward the flywheel clutch are area you will see a pin screwed into the block. Remove it. When that pin goes into the flywheel number one is at TDC but, it can still be 180 out unless you look at the valves to make sure they are both seated. I have turned the engine over with a large by huge screw driver until I could see the register hole in the flywheel, it's a bit tricky. When you know number one is one the firing stroke, both valves closed. Remove the timing cover off the side of the injector pump, there will be a static scribed line and another on the governor weight retainer. The governor weight retainer is spun by the input shaft of the pump. The two marks need to line up when #1 is on the firing/inject stroke.

Generally when I am going to remove an injector pump I remove the timing window and line up the two scribes lines before removing the pump.

If he got it to start when it was out of time..... never seen that. Was he by chance using either to start it? If he had a heavy load of fuel in the cylinder and used either it may try and run away... not good... expensive broken parts. He will need to bleed the system all the way to the injectors if he hasn't already.

BTW why did he replace/have the injector pump rebuilt? Was it because it lost power no matter where he placed the throttle?

Hope this helps. You can PM me as well.

steellhead · Post by **steellhead** » Sun May 25, 2014 7:56 pm

Alright, he got it to start on it's own with the 180 re-time, but say's it's revving out of control now, what gives?
You ask about the injector pump being replaced, the old guy said in was pooched not pumping fuel to cylinders. symptoms: slowly idled down on it's own and stalled, started back up, went 30 ft. stalled out again. wouldn't restart. Left for an hour came back and started OK, five minutes later stalled again and would not restart, checked fuel flow from pump....... and nothing.
Thanks again for the interest.

jtrichard · Post by **jtrichard** » Sun May 25, 2014 9:02 pm

sounds like the governor is shot

DrLoch · Post by **DrLoch** » Mon May 26, 2014 7:37 am

steellhead wrote:Alright, he got it to start on it's own with the 180 re-time, but say's it's revving out of control now, what gives?
You ask about the injector pump being replaced, the old guy said in was pooched not pumping fuel to cylinders. symptoms: slowly idled down on it's own and stalled, started back up, went 30 ft. stalled out again. wouldn't restart. Left for an hour came back and started OK, five minutes later stalled again and would not restart, checked fuel flow from pump....... and nothing.
Thanks again for the interest.

" That is a classic problem with these pumps. Here is an explanation about the initial problem from a very very smart man that has many post across a number of different boards under the name of jdemarris. "It is a very common problem with Deere tractors using Stanadyne/Roosamaster rotary DB or JDB injection pumps.
Not just affected by engine hours, but also age Plastic parts inside the pump fall apart over time, regardless of
use. Note I said DB and JDB pumps. The CBC pump does not have the problem (but does have many others).
The vibration-dampener on the governor flyweight cage is plastic "pellathane." First it breaks. Then it crumbles and
falls aparts and the pieces plug up the pump's return-fuel circuit and housing-pressure-regulating valve. As this
happens, first the governor gets unresponsive at times. Then the engine starts to lose power, then quit- then
easily restart. Over and over and over again.
This problem is usually very easy to diagnose for sure. Just pull the little rectangular timing window off the side of
the pump via two small screws, and/or pull the entire top cover off the pump via three small hex-head bolts. Look
inside. If you see any small dark colored bits that look like mouse turds, then you've got a failed dampener ring. It
will plug the regulator valve and cause engine shut-down. The info you cited from somewhere else was probably
written by me. Did you try removing the entire fitting assembly from the top of the pump - so all there was left as
an open hole - and then run it?
Some people make the mistake of only removing the steel fitting that the return line hooks to. That screws into
the combo regulator/check-valve under it, and THAT is what plugs.
You also have to verify the injection pump is always getting fuel. It will work fine with NO fuel pump, but cannot
work with a BAD fuel pump. Testing the fuel pump with just the hand-primer doesn't tell you much. The hand
primer can work fine, while the cam-driven linkage that lets engine run the fuel pump can be worn out. Easiest
way to test is just to crack loose the fuel feed line where it hooks to the injection pump while the engine is
running. If fuel sprays out, it's obviously getting fuel. Note that if the injection pump is starving for fuel, it will get
air in it and act the same as it does when the internal ring has failed.
To fix the pump requires approx. $25 in parts and an hour's labor, not including pulling it off and putting it back on.
A pump shop will charge you $400-$800 for the same work. You can also spend an extra $50 and upgrade the
governor, and elimate that plastic ring. This was done with all on-the-road Chevy and Ford cars and trucks that
used the same basic pump in 1985."

I found a number of his posts when mine went bad. I bought the parts and fixed it myself, cost me about $125, I bought more parts than I needed plus I got the tool for compressing the umbrella seals when re installing the pump.

Getting back to his current problem, the governor weights are hanging up or weren't assembled correctly, that is what controls the engine speed for a given throttle position. If they aren't swing out the RPM will run away like he's seeing. He will need to remove the pump again and take it back to the rebuilder. Before he takes it off again have him bring #1 to TDC on the firing/inject stroke like I outlined. Remove the injector timing window and line up the lines, he'll see them when he's manually rotating the engine over. When he re-installs he will need to go though the complete bleeding process again. Also, make sure he's filling the case of the pump with diesel after the pump is installed. He can do that by removing the housing pressure regulator check valve on top, it will have a line that runs up to the inject bleed lines connected to it.

steellhead · Post by **steellhead** » Mon May 26, 2014 7:41 am

pump is a reman, just freshly installed. Could it be fubar'ed already?
Old guy thinks it's working or engine would not rev at all.

DrLoch · Post by **DrLoch** » Mon May 26, 2014 8:00 am

steellhead wrote:pump is a reman, just freshly installed. Could it be fubar'ed already?
Old guy thinks it's working or engine would not rev at all.

The pump is working, kinda, the centrifugal governor assembly is not working correctly. I can get into a long desertion about how it operates but the short of the long is that under the top cover there are among other things some springs and an arm that through a positive linkage rotate the metering valve. The metering valve is what meters the amount of fuel being injected. The force on the governor arm caused by the flywheel weights is balanced by the compression type governor spring which is manually controlled by the throttle shaft linkage in regulating engine speed. Either the weights are not swinging out or the linkage under the cover is not correctly assembled. In any event the governor is not working and if he continues to run it like that he will be able to see what a connecting rod looks like...... These motors are not meant to be spun very high.

steellhead · Post by **steellhead** » Mon May 26, 2014 9:28 am

Thanks again DrLoch, should i tell him to remove cover and inspect, he's probably going to do it anyway.
Just got off the phone with the old man, he said he has the same pump on an older burnt machine out back. Say's he can compare governor linkages under cover of both pumps and go from there.

DrLoch · Post by **DrLoch** » Mon May 26, 2014 10:33 am

He can try that, hopefully the linkage under the cover is what the problem is. The governor assembly and related internal linkage of all these pump is basically the same, what makes the difference is the number of cylinders and the amount of fuel being injected. The governor and related linkage throttles/adjusts the amount of fuel being injected based on throttle position via the hand throttle and the movement of the governor weights. That is done by controlling the movement of the metering valve. At light throttle and light to no load the governor assembly and is limiting the shot to maintain a given RPM/torque based on throttle position and the effects of the governor pushing on the springs which is positioning the metering valve. If the load goes up and the engine slows down the governor slows down the weights retract which in turn raises fuel delivery size to increase the power to get the RPM to rise to the throttle position request. Think of like you driving your car on a flat road you maintain speed by how far you are pushing down on the accelerator pedal. If you come to hill, you have to press down further to maintain speed go up the hill. Conversely when you're going down the hill you need to lift to maintain the same speed. That is kind of the readers digest condensed version of what the governor is doing. So, in your fathers case something is not controlling the metering valve movement to control the RPM hence the RPM is running away.

I know you didn't ask for the detail, but if someone else reads this they will have some idea of whats going on and how it related to your fathers problem. Is is certainly fixable, he just need to find out what is not right.

steellhead · Post by **steellhead** » Mon May 26, 2014 12:34 pm

Cannot thank everyone enough for all the help. DrLoch, I don't know where you find the time?
Again.......just off the phone with pops, says he finally got it to idle down, If I understood him correctly there's a wire holding the throttle stop bolt, they had this wire somehow wrapped partially around the throttle shaft, not allowing something to move properly.
Not sure if I'm understanding what he told me.
I'm sure someone will know and correctly explain it. ( and if thats not the case I will get him to show me next time I visit so I can let everyone know, in case this is something new.)
Thanks, Frank and Pops, ( old guys 80, so happy now he,s having a drink)

DrLoch · Post by **DrLoch** » Tue May 27, 2014 6:44 am

Glad he got it running correctly. I'll be interested in finding out what the problem was.

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1980 450c engine timing problem

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