450C

[rufustoad]

Well after a long time of debating I am going to attempt to install new steering clutches on my 450c. I have a JD parts manual but was wondering if anyone knows if there is a good aftermarket service manual that gives a detailed breakdown of this repair?

[jtrichard]

HERE are 2 different ones first is reprint im guessing second is OEM with front and rear pages missing DON'T mess with aftermarket manuals like IT they dont have half what a deere manual has ... http://www.ebay.com/itm/John-Deere-JD-4 ... 19f7cf60b2 ...... http://www.ebay.com/itm/John-Deere-JD45 ... 462d99ebd7

[jsal]

On the JD website it is possible to download any manual they have for not a lot of money then print the pages you need


JIM

[DrLoch]

The TM1102 is the one you will need from JD. Hopefully the link will get you there.

http://www.johndeeretechinfo.com/index. ... Model=450C

It's $131.14 for the download version, PDF.

Just curious since I have a 450C also, how do you know that the steering clutches are bad and not something else?

[rufustoad]

Thanks guys for the input. I was hoping for a cheaper version but I guess thats how these things go. Do you have an input on aftermarket clutch discs compared to OEM? DrLoch, the crawler has gotten weaker and weaker both in forward and reverse and now I have no go at all. I also noticed a bit of oil on the brake adjusters which to me is a good indication of a leak and discs are now wet. I am sure wet discs are bad on these units. I am also going to change out the drive clutch while doing all this work. I "think" there is an intermediate clutch also that I am not sure about and I would be hard pressed to figure out how to diagnose all three of them? To many clutches for one unit:).

[Scottyb]

your crawler is the first model of 450 to come with wet discs in the steering clutches. So that is not your problem. It could just be the main flywheel clutch. That would be the easiest problem to repair, next it could be the reverser. Bigger problem for sure.

[Scottyb]

Todd, have you tried adjusting the main clutch ? Very easy as the adjustment bolt is just beside the clutch pedal. Let it out a few turns and see what happens.
As the clutch wears it gets closer on engagement to the top of the pedal and if you do not adjust for it, it will eventually slip all the time.

[rufustoad]

You don't think that a gradual slippage to nothing would either be drive or main clutch? I for sure intend on changing the drive clutch first. Is the "reverser" the clutch system internal to the trans?

[rufustoad]

Scott, my memory is bad so pls forgive me but I think I adjusted out the main. The crawler has been sitting for a bit now (like3yrs) which is killing me:(. What worried me was the leak around the back adjusters. I was told that any oil in that area was very bad and an indication of possible hose leak that would hurt the rear discs? Again I have to get that manual badly but I have not had the $150 for it.

[rufustoad]

Well now its all coming back to me. I did adjust out the main clutch and I do have pull but I purchased a clutch, plate, and brg a couple years ago to replace what's in it because the adjustments all out. When the dozer gets hot I start loosing the left side and I also have very little left steering as well and that is why I figured the drive discs are out? What are your thoughts? I was also wondering what a good estimation of time would be to replace the steering clutches? Thanks again for your input.

[jtrichard]

FIRST thing are you SURE you have a "C" what is your serial# ? ... next the 450C has wet clutches so the steering boxes should be full of fluid..... if its a 450 or 450B than it would be dry and yes any fluid in there is BAD generally both steering clutches DON'T go out at the exact same time so yes you probably have some other issue.... one would think with HLR trans that the main clutch should get VERY little wear if it has been run properly (sounds like someone has been or is using it way to much) ??? .. I would not get a service manual until you verify what series 450 you have ...just my thoughts

[Frankdozer]

I have a 1984 John Deere 455d. It was mentioned that in a HLR trany that if it was ran properly that it shouldn't be the clutch. I use my clutch all the time. I always step on the clutch, come to a complete stop before changing direction and let the clutch out. Just like I was driving a standard shift car / truck. Am I using it improperly or better yet, how should I drive it?
Thanks, Frank

[jtrichard]

with a true HLR and NOT the early "reversers" like in a 440.... you only use the clutch to change the "range" shifter ...as stated in my 2010 operators manual "whether the tractor is stationary or in motion the reverser lever can be shifted without disengaging the clutch. this allows you to shuttle the tractor rapidly or to down shift under load" i found this on your455 page 2 1/3 down the left side look for transmission and it tells you all about it http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/constru ... s/455D.pdf so in a word YES you have been using the clutch unnecessarily on page one almost the first thing talked about is the "POWER SHIFT HI LO REVERSE TRANS" they work kinda like an automatic in a car.. just better as you can shift from forward to reverse with out stopping or throttling down POWER SHIFT changed the world of tractors for the better ten times over

[JWB Contracting]

One thing to remember is the foot clutch on these crawlers has 2 stages. The first oil (like a 350c or any deere HLR equipped crawler) and the second being a dry automotive style clutch that is activated only when you step the pedal all the way down.

I often use the clutch to change directions, but only the oil portion.

You should notice or feel additional pressure after you step the clutch pedal about 2/3's of way down. I use the dry portion of the clutch for starting. Basically deere combined the 2010's oil clutch and manual HLR disconnect function onto one pedal on all 450's with an HLR. Trying to be technically correct as we have a non HLR 450 dozer in the shed.

I would go thru the testing and adjustments to diagnose this problem. Could be the main oil adjustment on top of the tranny. Get a used manual off EBAY, normally half price of new.

[DrLoch]

Based on the responses you can see where I was going with my question.

If this indeed a 450 "C" then you would have a wet clutch system. Pressing all the way down on the clutch pedal will disengage the main clutch between the engine and the transmission input shaft. That is what you would do to make a gear changes, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th. Pressing down on the pedal up to throw out bearing contact with the clutch fingers, "clutch freeplay" can be used for hydraulic HLR range and direction changes if everything is adjusted correctly.

If your main clutch is slipping then you would see what you are seeing. First make sure the bellhousing is NOT full of oil. If the input shaft or the pump is/was leaking and the drain hole is plugged up the main disk could be slipping. Lift the left floor plate, you will see a rubber plug pull it out. Look down inside with a flash light to see if it's full of oil.

While your at it remove the right floor plate as well, you may need access to the pump relief valve spring area.

Next thing that could be causing your symptoms could be that the clutch control valve needs to be adjusted and/or the pump pressure is to low. What does the trans oil look and smell like? The symptoms for that could be that when cold it kind of works alright and then the more you use it it gets to the point of no movement. If that is the case you may have fried all the clutches and now you are going to be learning how to do a HLR rebuild along with the finals.

You really need a manual just so you will know where all the stuff is that I'm going to explain.

You need to, 1 check the clutch free play, should be 3.75 inches. adjust that with the screw on the floor down near the clutch pedal. If you adjust that you need to make sure it ends up in the detent position.

Then you will need to install a pressure gage in the bypass valve port in the accumulator housing through the access hole in the transmission top cover. FYI, a 0- 250 PSI if you can find one, that will give you the best resolution. That will be under the plug on the floor between you feet.

Under the left plug in the bellhousing you see a nut, I believe it's a 1/2' but don't hold me to it. turn it down until you see the clutch pedal just start to move down, then back it out about 4-5 turns.

Get up in the seat, make sure both gear shift and H-L-R levers are in neutral and the brakes locked, press the clutch all the way down and start engine and run at slow idle, slowly let out on the clutch and make sure it is indeed in neutral... Then press in the clutch again and move the HLR lever to forward or reverse and let out on the clutch, this is to make sure the gear section in in neutral. Leave the HLR lever where it is, it must be in forward or reverse though and the manual isn't quite clear on this.

Bring engine up to about 1500-1600 RPM now.

Turn the nut under the left plug clockwise, as you are turning the nut you will see the pressure on the gage increase and then drop. Max pressure you see on the gage needs to be 160- 170 PSI, if it's not then you need to add shims to the pump relief valve spring, thats under the the right plug in the bellhousing. I believe I used pennies, they were good for a bump of ~ 10-15 PSI. Once you have done that, press down on the clutch pedal about 3/4" The pressure should rise about 5 PSI...If the 5 SPI rise requires more than 3/4" turn the nut counter clockwise, if you see the rise at less than a 1/2" pedal travel turn the nut clockwise.

Pressing the clutch down to remove the freeplay will drop the pressure, that is if you chose can make a direction change although once everything is adjusted correctly you don't need to use the clutch pedal. I do on direction changes because after doing the adjustment I need to go back and adjust the needle valve, mine shifts too fast and will jerk you out of the seat.

Once you have done this when you can move the HLR lever from forward to reverse and visa versa you can watch the gauge and it will drop and then rise again and you will briefly hear the motor load up as it shifts and get the mass moving in the other direction.

If the pump pressure was low all the clutch packs could have been slipping, HLR High, Low, Reverse and the finals since they are pressurized from the pump as well.

Good luck and let us know what you find.
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