1010 dozer starting problem

[Jason Z in MO]

I got the pump and injectors back from the pump shop. Couldn't wait to bolt it all back together so I put my bibs on and set up some lights. After getting it all back together, bleeding and correcting a couple of fuel leaks I was able to crank it over. Got a little smoke first then it would fire up but died after about 2-3 seconds. I used the glow plugs but it constantly would fire up and die. I think I have it timed correctly. I confirmed #1 was at TDC, installed pump with index marks lined up.

Seems like it dies after the engine speed picks up... something with the advance maybe? This is the DBGVC429-2DH pump which is want came off the tractor. If you recall, this is the pump used on a 2010. I wasn't able to confirm if it has a 2010 engine so I decided to stick with the same pump. The Diesel shop checked and the only difference between the 2DH and 1DH is the fuel settings. Could it be turned up and getting too much fuel?

The pump was adjusted on the test stand.

It does smoke a lot for those few seconds but its cold here.

thanks for any suggestions.

[jdemaris]

The Diesel shop checked and the only difference between the 2DH and 1DH is the fuel settings. Could it be turned up and getting too much fuel?

Too much fuel is not going to be your starting problem. The main difference in the fuel delivery between the two pumps is with the engine running and not so much at cranking speed. Being a used pump, if anything, it probably pumps a little less at cranking speed than a new pump. There are minimum specs when testing on the test stand, not maximum when it comes to fuel pumps at cranking speed.

The pumps are basically identical, but besides the fuel delivery, the timing advance curve is also slightly different. Advance makes no difference with starting.
The timing at cranking does differ though with some other pumps used on 2010s and that can make a big difference in cold starting.

I don't want to get overly complicated here, but I guess I don't know how not to. 1010 and 2010 series were the first Deere tractors to ever use the Roosamaster rotary pumps. In fact, the pumps were new to all tractors of any make (I think Hercules got them first). So, there was a lot of trial-and-error over the years by Deere and Roosamaster/Stanadyne. Thus the confusion. 2010 engine was new and so was the injection system.

The timing marks can vary with different model pumps and that can make a big difference in cold starting. When you install a pump on to the engine, and line up the timing marks - you are kind of doing so blindly. Unless you have the specific pump specs, you don't know what it actually means when those lines are lined up. Those timing marks are etched on by hand when the pump is put together, rebuilt, etc. The pump you have right now has those marks etched on at 48.5 degrees. Some other 2010 pumps have them at 47 degrees or 50.5 degrees. And, that's pump degrees which is half of engine degrees. So, installing any of the many 2010 pumps, with those timing lines lined up - can vary by 3.5 pump degrees which equals 7 degrees at the flywheel. That is a huge difference and can make a big difference in cold starting. For that reason, it makes sense to experiment by the position of the pump when bolted to the engine.

DBGVC429-1DH pump has fuel set at 1.957" and 12 degrees engine advance at 2000
RPM. 48.5 degree mark. This is a pump for a Deere 40 or 45 combine with the HA-165D
or HB-165D engine.

DBGVC429-2DH pump has fuel set at 1.964" and 10 degrees engine advance at 2000
RPM. 48.5 degree mark. This is a pump for a Deere 40 or 45 combine with the HA-165D
or HB-165D engine and some 2010 wheel tractors. Deere # AT16518

2010 crawler pump is a DBGVC429-4AJ
Fuel set at 1.962" at 10 degrees engine advance at 2000 RPM
47.5 degree mark
13 - 15 ccs per 1000 strokes at 2670 engine RPM
15 ccs per 1000 strokes at cranking speed (100 RPM)

2010 wheel tractor pump is a DBGVC431-1J. Deere # AT11769
Fuel is set at 1.948". Full 8 degrees engine advance at 2670 RPM.
8-10 ccs per 1000 strokes at 2670 RPM
8 ccs per 1000 strokes at cranking speed (100 RPM)
50.5 degree mark

[Jason Z in MO]

John,

Thank you for your reply. It will be saved in my archive of information. I won't say I fully understand everything you said but the point you make about the timing marks is clear. I didn't explain this on the original post be cause I tend to get too windy anyway but to give you the whole story... The old pump was an AT16518, stamped right next to the DBGVC429-2DH. The parts book for my SN tractor says it should be the AT16517 or DBGVC429-1DH but I don't know the history of the tractor or engine so I decided to stick with the same pump. The shop took my old pump apart and found the cam ring (I believe) to have some scaring. He showed it to me said it wasn't terrible and he could rebuild it and it would run fine. But... He wouldn't be able to stand behind a 1 year warrenty. He had a NEW AT16518 on the shelf. Had a tag dated 1984. He would rebuild this pump for an extra $100. So I opted for the new pump. He wanted to go through it because it had sat so long. On the test stand it didn't draw fuel as it should so he replaced the vanes or something like that. I don't remember what he called the parts. Appearently, there was updates while this pump was sitting on the shelf.

So I have a new pump installed. When I removed the old pump at TDC the marks on the pump were lined up. This is how I have it now. I will say the pump is almost to the end of the adjustment slot when the old one wasn't.

I think you are onto something with the hand scribed timing marks.

So I know I should have changed the oil before my attempts at starting but the oil looked very clean. Actually, the crap must have just settled out. After it fired a few times it's pretty bad. Once I change the oil I will play with the timing. I didn't pick up a timing window but I think I might need one now!

[Jason Z in MO]

Between loading and hauling hay today I was able to work on the crawler a bit. I changed the oil and while crawling under I noticed the right steering clutch housing is cracked.... That will have to wait... I warmed the glow plugs for 30 seconds, opened the throttle, 3 pumps on the primer and cranked. It fired up like the night before, black smoke, built some RPM, smoke turned white then died all in about 2-3 seconds. This pattern is very repeatable. I tried adjusting the pump rotating it counter clockwise each time, (it was mostly clockwise in the range already). It seemed to improve the run time. 3-5 seconds. By now, I ran out of battery and time. I still need to play with the pump timing. The return hose is preventing me from rotating it any farther. I'm only adjusting it a degree or so each time.

Couple of other things I keep thinking about. I didn't check the compression could low compression cause this problem or would it not run at all? I imagine the valves haven't been adjusted in a long time, would make much difference?

I also noticed the vent tube is flattened pretty good at the starter. Not sure if it's pinched shut or not so I will pull it off tomorrow. I did lift the dipstick out a bit to let it breathe. No change...

[mini kahuna]

it sounds like your burning the fuel from priming and then running out of fuel.
do you have a good clean flow of fuel to your pump inlet?

[Jason Z in MO]

I worked some more today. I confirmed the fuel flow to the pump, checked the return to make sure there was no blockage to the tank, loosened the injector lines and bled it again. I did remove the hood and found the tank vent was plugged but I suspected it before removing the hood so I left the cap on loose. I played with the timing and still no change.

When I had the injectors out I did confirm the glow plugs all worked by feeling the heat down in the bores. Today I checked they with the amp meter. I have two drawing 12-13 amps, one around 7 amps and one must have burnt out while tring to start it. But it still will run for a few seconds, black smoke, RPM increase then white smoke an die.

I guess I will call the pump shop in the morning.

[mini kahuna]

are you following the proper bleeding for the system,my 1010 is not much fun bleeding out either.
I have to bleed both filters and then remove the inlet to the pump and get all the air out at the fitting going into the pump,any other method and she won't even pop.

sounds like you have a clear flow of fuel to the pump,looks like you still have some sort if injection pump problem.

[Jason Z in MO]

I did bleed it per the book. I have good flow to the pump but I didn't let it flow for very long. I opened the lines at the injectors and each one spits fuel in the firing order. Not sure how much it should flow at the injectors. But I am getting fuel. I checked the return line in the tank and it's free but I will pull the hose off and see if I'm getting flow from the pump. It will fire up without the aid of the primer but the primer does make a difference.

I'm wondering about the timing more and more. The last time I tried to set it. I noticed I could rotate the pump but the marks didn't move in relation to each other. I guess from backlash in the oil pump gears. I will pull the pump and do a closer inspection. Hate to pull the lines, one was a pain to get threaded correctly.

Thank you all for your suggestions, I'm encouraged that it does run for a brief few seconds. I'm hoping this tells me I have a good engine.

Thank you!

[Tigerhaze]

Hi Jason-

It may be worth looking at these archived threads for some ideas about bleeding and injector pumps (mainly about 2010 diesels but should apply to the 1010 diesels as well)- it's interesting but one of the guys with a 1010 had problems bleeding because his starter would not crank the injection pump over fast enough to bleed the system quickly:

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... t=bleeding

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... t=bleeding

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... t=bleeding

[Jason Z in MO]

Tiger! you are the King of the Archive! Thank you very much! I have read these posts before my current problems. Funny how you see things differently the second time... especially when your in the middle of the problem!

Reading these I do think I have a bleeding issue which might be caused by the return. I did confirm the tank isn't plugged but Ididn't check the flow from the pump. Thinking about this reminded me of something I noticed while installing the pump. The fuel return has a fitting screwed into it with the 3/16" barb fitting for the injector return. Down in the threaded portion of the pump end looks like a small wire bent filling the small hole. I asked the pump shop about it and he said it's a "J hook"... I think that's what he called it. He did say this wouldn't have been installed when they tested the pump. Is this standard on these pumps used on the 1010?

If I wasn't careful enough when reinstalling everything it wouldn't take much crap to plug this up. Next chance I get it will be checked.

[Tigerhaze]

I've been involved in enough of these posts the last few years to remember topics such as bleeding 1010 diesels, and thought I would post them up. I wasn't sure if they would be helpful or not...hopefully they are.

[jdemaris]

Reading these I do think I have a bleeding issue which might be caused by the return. I did confirm the tank isn't plugged but Ididn't check the flow from the pump. Thinking about this reminded me of something I noticed while installing the pump. The fuel return has a fitting screwed into it with the 3/16" barb fitting for the injector return. Down in the threaded portion of the pump end looks like a small wire bent filling the small hole. I asked the pump shop about it and he said it's a "J hook"... I think that's what he called it. He did say this wouldn't have been installed when they tested the pump. Is this standard on these pumps used on the 1010?

That vent-wire is standard on early pumps. That pump is self-bleeding once air-free air is being delivered to it. If the pump is OK, and the lines are hooked so clean air-free fuel gets in, and fuel can get out, the pump bleeds itself once running. It can do this even in a system that does not have a gravity feed tank for an extra external fuel pump and has an even easier job in a 1010 or 2010 with the overhead fuel tank.

Without knowing specifics, in general it sounds to me like you've got a combination of retarded injection timing, possible low fuel delivery at cranking, and valve-timing that might be off. Valve timing is determined and adjusted by your rocker-arm adjustments. If they are loose, valves open late and close early - with too short a duration.

[Jason Z in MO]

John,

It does look like I'm facing a couple of problems. I suspected the valve train simply because I'm sure that's something which get neglected. Especially when you have to remove the fuel tank and drain the cooling system just to pull the cover.

I was planning to do this after I got it running so just as well get it done now and rule it out.

Thanks for all the suggestions!

[Jason Z in MO]

She runs! I just came in from playing around a bit. Turns out the fuel return was too restricted with the little J hook wire.

I pulled the fuel return line from the tank and cranked but just got a couple of drops. I pulled the fitting with the J wire and connected a temporary hose. This time I got good fuel flow about the size of a pencil and after a bit of cranking it RAN! I cleaned up the J wire assuming something plugging it up. The wire JUST fits into the hole and wouldn't take much to plug it completely. I put it back together and I was back to where I was before. Well not completely. It would run but only at an idle. I moved the throttle WOT but didn't affect the RPM. Then I removed the wire from the fitting and re-installed. I hope the wire is a required part cause it won't run with it!

So the good points... The 6way hydraulic blade works great with no leaks except for the angle cylinder which looks wet but not dripping. The foot clutch works fine feels a little fast but no issues. Steering clutches are both good, brakes are also in good shape. The levers may need to be adjusted, they don't have the same feel. UC is mostly quiet, rollers are all smooth.

Now the engine... I'm going to adjust the valves and confirm the pump timing one more time but the engine sure smokes, either white or blue hard to tell at night. The tractor came with a cheap automotive oil pressure gauge with about 6-8 feet of tiny plastic tubing. The gauge messures 0-100 PSI so it's not so accurate at lower pressures. I wasn't getting any pressure registered; just barely moving it off the stop. I pulled the tubing off and blew it out with compressed air. Now it moves a bit more at 1/2 throttle it makes about 15-20 psi. I think the book says it should be 30-50. The engine had some really thick oil. I replaced it with 15w-40. At low idle it dosen't have anything on the gauge. I was told it was a good running engine with fuel pump problems. It seems to have plenty of power but I do hear a noise in the engine. I assume it needs at least a low end rebuild.

I do know of a 1010 gas engine... maybe I better have a spare!

[Tigerhaze]

Hi Jason-

Glad to hear that you have solved the mystery.

I hate to be the "thread master" again , but as for swapping with a gas engine you will want to do some searches on here. Several people have asked about the viability of swapping a gas engine for a diesel and vice-versa on the 1010s and 2010s, and I believe the consensus is that there are enough differences between the two (not just the direct engine parts) that it would be a pretty difficult conversion unless you have the time and inclination to scavange all the needed parts.