Opinions on this straight 450?

[charlz]

Hi guys!

I have been toying with the idea of buying a loader/crawler and there is a straight 450 for sale about 4 hours away. The intended use would be to move tons of dirt at the local rifle range to help complete some projects like making pistol pits, making safety berms, drag a disc for a fire break etc. It seems like a loader/crawler would be the best fit between a wheel loader and a dozer.

I am new to crawlers and, having read lots of threads here and elsewhere, realize you can be in over your head quite quickly. The guy has it for sale both on Craigslist and Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/John-Deere-450- ... 2183000943

http://eastoregon.craigslist.org/grd/2978757686.html

Is there anything you can tell about the condition from the pictures? It seems a little concerning that the guy has gone from $5500 on Craigslist to 'No Reserve' on Ebay apparently because the 'clutch needs some adjustment'. More likely adjustment or rebuild? Maybe he just wants to move it as he has had it listed for a while.

I have read through some of the steering clutch rebuild threads and, while a lot of work, that is not something beyond my skill-set and tools. Of course I would rather not have to spend the time and money on it before actually getting something done with it.

I appreciate any feedback, thanks!

Charles

[Paul Buhler]

Hi:
Could you rent a machine to do what you want to get done?

Once I got out of logging, I found this to be a good solution to getting large amounts of earth moved - I could rent a job-matched machine, get the job done and then go on to do other things; all for a relatively known cost and with a usually sound and reliable machine.

Having an older machine (like the one you are considering) has it's expense and challenges as you've noted. They also have their "fun factor" too. Will buying this machine meet your time constraints and earth works needs?

Just some food for thought - good luck. Paul

[vestor_guy]

The statement about the clutches is accurate. The brake bands need adjustment quite often. I have had 3 straight 450's and that is true.

The tracks look good. Someone cut down 16 inch grouser pads to give clearance between the housing. I don't think that is a problem. The rear sprokets are in really good shape so those were changed when the tracks were renewed.

I still like a dozer for moving dirt. I donated a 450B dozer to a rifle range and they did a ton of work with it. I had second thoughts about the donation after an incident. I trained one and only one person to operate the dozer. No one else was allowed to use it. About a year later, he was pushing dirt cutting down a bank when he got into soft dirt and went over the edge. It did a complete 360 and landed on the tracks in a cloud of dust. It had a brush roll guard with the exhaust protected. It was still running with the top of the roll cage dented in. That was the only damage. The operator lost his glasses never to be found and am I ever glad that I stressed he ALWAYS was to wear the seat belt.

There is a learning curve to dozing and there are no short cuts.

[charlz]

Hi:
Could you rent a machine to do what you want to get done?

Once I got out of logging, I found this to be a good solution to getting large amounts of earth moved - I could rent a job-matched machine, get the job done and then do other things; all for a relatively known cost and with a usually sound and reliable machine.

Having an older machine (like the one you are considering) has it's expense and challenges as you've noted. They also have their "fun factor" too. Will buying this machine meet your time constraints and earth works needs?

Just some food for thought - good luck. Paul

Mostly they have gotten grants and hired a contractor to do projects. That usually takes a few years and some of the grants will not allow dirt work to be done. Since some of the pending projects have been on the list for 15 years I think having this machine would meet the timelines even if it needed work and was out for months.

We could probably rent but most state they require a 'qualified operator', what ever that is. One thing I like about owning is you can do projects at your pace and are not rushing to make sure you get as much done as possible before 'times up'. I have rented small equipment before and own a small tractor that I use on my place so I am pretty familiar with the differences in the pace.

[charlz]

The statement about the clutches is accurate. The brake bands need adjustment quite often. I have had 3 straight 450's and that is true.

The tracks look good. Someone cut down 16 inch grouser pads to give clearance between the housing. I don't think that is a problem. The rear sprokets are in really good shape so those were changed when the tracks were renewed.

I still like a dozer for moving dirt. I donated a 450B dozer to a rifle range and they did a ton of work with it. I had second thoughts about the donation after an incident. I trained one and only one person to operate the dozer. No one else was allowed to use it. About a year later, he was pushing dirt cutting down a bank when he got into soft dirt and went over the edge. It did a complete 360 and landed on the tracks in a cloud of dust. It had a brush roll guard with the exhaust protected. It was still running with the top of the roll cage dented in. That was the only damage. The operator lost his glasses never to be found and am I ever glad that I stressed he ALWAYS was to wear the seat belt.

There is a learning curve to dozing and there are no short cuts.

Thanks for the feedback! A little easier on the mind knowing the tracks, sprockets etc are probably OK. I was leaning towards a loader with building the berms in mind as I would think you would need much more dirt with a dozer since you have to push the dirt up and can't achieve as steep an angle of repose. But then I have never operated a dozer either.

Not having a ROPS is a concern because the soil is a sandy/silt with no rocks larger than a golf ball if any at all. Easy to get in trouble on a loose slope or something. The learning curve is part of why I would rather own than rent... not sure I could be all that effective for the rental money/timeframe. Might be better to just hire it out than rent depending on the cost differences.

There is a yearly task they would like to do which is best done with a tracked machine; dragging a disk around the perimeter to make a fire break. Part of it runs up hill, across a flat and back down, something best done with a tracked machine.

[vestor_guy]

As for the clutches, it is really obvious when a clutch is stuck so I doubt he would attempt to sell it on ebay if it was not working. You cannot pay in any other method than paypal anymore so there is protection from fraud.

From the photo, the cross member looks tight also. Just from the photos, I would say if could be a decent buy. If you have the opportunity, I would go look at it to be sure.

The loader would work better if you are moving dirt uphill to make a berm but most people have a tough time grading with a loader. If I got that loader and was working on any kind of slopes, I would want a ROPS. From the photos, it does not look like it has ever had a ROPS installed. It probably does not have a seat belt either because you would not want to wear one since it does not have the ROPS. My Dad once flipped a crawler on a slope when the upper track hit a good sized rock. It was an old cat 22 with no canopy and he bailed.

I doubt that will bring very much on ebay but I could be wrong.

[jdemaris]

Hi guys!

I have been toying with the idea of buying a loader/crawler and there is a straight 450 for sale about 4 hours away.

Great machines but - a few things to note.

So, a word of warning with 450 crawlers. A machine can start fine, and run fine until it gets good and hot - and then can lose engine oil pressure - and/or stop moving due to transmission slippage. I've seen several go to auction that way. No guarantee and they work good when people try them out for a bit on-site. I just passed up a 450B that ran great until you worked it hard for over half and hour - and then the HL-R started to slip - badly. After an hour, it would not move at all in high range.

With the engine - the 450 has a potential problem that 350s do not have. Twin balancing shafts at the bottom of the engine. During routine in-frame engine rebuilds - they can't be accessed so are usually left as-is. When worn - the engine will have great oil pressure cold -but at it gets hot it will keep dropping and often get down to near zero.

I'm not trying to scare you. But - anybody who is buying a 450 ought to run it for an hour in the dirt, at least -before buying.

[charlz]

Hi guys!

I have been toying with the idea of buying a loader/crawler and there is a straight 450 for sale about 4 hours away.

Great machines but - a few things to note.

So, a word of warning with 450 crawlers. A machine can start fine, and run fine until it gets good and hot - and then can lose engine oil pressure - and/or stop moving due to transmission slippage. I've seen several go to auction that way. No guarantee and they work good when people try them out for a bit on-site. I just passed up a 450B that ran great until you worked it hard for over half and hour - and then the HL-R started to slip - badly. After an hour, it would not move at all in high range.

With the engine - the 450 has a potential problem that 350s do not have. Twin balancing shafts at the bottom of the engine. During routine in-frame engine rebuilds - they can't be accessed so are usually left as-is. When worn - the engine will have great oil pressure cold -but at it gets hot it will keep dropping and often get down to near zero.

I'm not trying to scare you. But - anybody who is buying a 450 ought to run it for an hour in the dirt, at least -before buying.

Thanks, I did read about the HLR cool versus hot issues on here but had not come across the oil pressure info. Both really good know... it is certainly an interesting scenario to try and have the buyer let you use the machine hard for an hour as part of the eval.

[charlz]

As for the clutches, it is really obvious when a clutch is stuck so I doubt he would attempt to sell it on ebay if it was not working. You cannot pay in any other method than paypal anymore so there is protection from fraud.

From the photo, the cross member looks tight also. Just from the photos, I would say if could be a decent buy. If you have the opportunity, I would go look at it to be sure.

The loader would work better if you are moving dirt uphill to make a berm but most people have a tough time grading with a loader. If I got that loader and was working on any kind of slopes, I would want a ROPS. From the photos, it does not look like it has ever had a ROPS installed. It probably does not have a seat belt either because you would not want to wear one since it does not have the ROPS. My Dad once flipped a crawler on a slope when the upper track hit a good sized rock. It was an old cat 22 with no canopy and he bailed.

I doubt that will bring very much on ebay but I could be wrong.

I have a little experience grading with the loader on my tractor, takes a while but eventually you get things pretty smooth. For the most part grading isn't a concern except in the bottom of shooting pits. Where the berms need built up it can be left rough if necessary.

How hard it it to add a ROPS? I did some searching on here but didn't find any threads where someone added one (ROPS is a pretty common term to search on). Can you buy the brackets or do you have to fabricate them? I can do some fabrication but the ROPS itself I would have to find a used one or have a 'real shop' make it.

[Tigerhaze]

Hi Charlz-

I thought I would throw in my $0.02- I am more familiar with the 450 predecessor (the 2010) but some things such as the HLR and undercarriage are similar between the two.

First of all, there are quite a few good discussions on this board that you can look up for all the generic questions that you asked. It's not that we mind answering your specific questions but will limit our repetition with a little research for the generic questions. Some have photos as well which are very helpful.

I am not sure I am so optimistic about the undercarriage- the tracks are quite loose in the photos and while there is some additional travel left in the track adjusters it seems like after the track is proerly tensioned that the front idler bracket will be pretty far out on the trackframes. Also the one photo of a sprocket I saw looked like the teeth have lost much of their "meat". It's not to say the undercarriage is on its last legs, but I'm guessing that the previous owner swapped out the original loader tracks with dozer tracks because the pads or pins/bushings were too worn. I would want to closely inspect and measure wear on the sprcokets, rollers, etc. I would also measure pin/bushing wear on the dozer rails.

FYI, I am not concerned about cutting width on the pads- but it is generally not a good idea to put dozer grouser pads on a loader. While these grousers don't seem to be very aggressive, the additional traction grousers provide is hard on drivetrain components because of the lack of slippage with the additional weight from the loader and filled loader bucket.

Usually when steering clutches are advertised as needing adjustment, it really means that they need replacement. Otherwise in most cases the adjustment would have been done.

Finally, true ROPS are an engineered structure tested to ensure that they can withstand the force of a rollover without collapse. Anything less than an engineered structure is simply a canopy to protect from falling objects. My understanding is that the brackets vary depending on whether a dozer or loader and other attachments. I don't know about availability but would guess it is limited. You can check the JDparts website if you want to confirm factory availability- otherwise you would need to fabricate or start calling salvage yards.

Hope this helps.

[vestor_guy]

I disagree that the tracks show significant wear. The rear sprokets don't look like they have a huge amount of wear and the chain looks decent. If the sprockets were really worn, the points would be like knives.

This undercarriage could probably last as long as you want to do range work with it. I had a loader with grousers and it was not a problem at all. Since it does not have a hoe attached, I don't see it to be a deciding factor.

Ebay is a lot safer than it used to be. Paypal holds the money for a while and if you buy it, run it for a while and it has problems, paypal will get the situation resolved. Just be sure you use paypal. I would suggest you go look at it in person before you buy. Run it, get it warm and see what you have. If you could take someone with you who knows about these tractors, that would be best. Look for oil leaks on the front idllers and track rollers if they are the newer sealed type. If you back the crawler up on a 6 inch block or so right under the rear sprokets, you can lower the bucket and raise the tractor off the ground. You can then use a large pry bar under the rollers to check for vertical movement and shot bushings. The rear roller will usually have the most wear. You can check the pins in the track chain by feeling for the curvature of the pin on the top and bottom. If they are flatten on the bottom, they are worn. If they are flattened on the top, the pins have been rotated.

Overall, look for leaks under and throughtout the tractor. Check the loader frame for cracks, both the uprights and boom. If I was closer, I would check it out for you.

As for a ROPS, look to a salvage yard. There are plates that need to be welded to the frame in back and attach points that need to be welded to the frame in front. Be sure you get both the back plates and the front attach points removed from the "donor" tractor.

I am a competitive rife shooter so I wish you well.

If you want to see a tractor with worn tracks, look at this one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/John-Deere-450G ... 5d33a72202

[charlz]

Thanks guys for the continued feedback. I did check local salvage yards after Tigerhaze jogged my memory on that. Turns out tractorparts.com is local and he has a couple of 450's in the yard. One has a ROPs, hard to tell from the pic if it is factory or not.

The guy kind of complicated things by posting it over a holiday weekend so I may get a chance to pursue it and I may not.

vestor_guy, one of the projects is to put in paper butts for a 1000-yard range. Today long range and mile shoots are to steel gongs but having something to score matches would be cool.

[Tigerhaze]

Vestor and I can agree to disagree based on a few distant photos and without an in person inspection. I never said there was significant wear or that there aren't worse undercarriages out there, and certainly under occasional use as contemplated the undercarriage should last for a while.

However there was a reason the previous owner swapped the tracks (my guess is significant pad, rail, and pin/bushing wear). Even if the track and sprockets were swapped with a better used set it doesn't mean that the previous owner also swapped out the idlers and rollers which could be worn and add up to another thousand or two. You can't really see that in the photos due to the sprocket shields and roller guards.

I insepcted a 350 loader earlier this year at auction and at first glance the undercarriage looked good- nice thick rail height and decent sprockets. Upon closer inspection I noticed that chunks of the front idlers were missing from the loader being banged hard on the front end. I didn't notice that from the photos that the auctioneer had posted.

All I am saying is that I would take a close look in person at the condition of all the undercarriage parts, if possible. If anything else, it shows the owner you have some knowledge of crawlers and may give you some leverage during negotiation.

The range sounds like a fun project- I've done a fair amoutn of shooting out West at 300 and 500 yard ranges with my .30-06 and a friend's .50 BMG and it is a lot different than the 100 and 200 yards ranges that are more typical in the Midwest where I live.

[vestor_guy]

My point is that the seller of the 450 has had it a long time. IMO, it would probably work well for what you need at the range. Anyway, I don't think it is a piece of junk and the $5k or so is probably a decent price for it. If you don't check it out though, it is just a gamble.

50 BMG? I'd like to shoot that. I did 3 position .22 in school and HP metallic Sillouhette later. Won the IMSSU Championship in Finland in 1998.
Good luck on the crawler.

[jdemaris]

Is there anything you can tell about the condition from the pictures? It seems a little concerning that the guy has gone from $5500 on Craigslist to 'No Reserve' on Ebay apparently because the 'clutch needs some adjustment'.

From what I can see from "here", the tracks look pretty good. When the loose track gets pumped up tight there will be plenty of adjustment left. But - who knows what else is worn?

I think $5500 is high for a 450 loader unless in verified excellent condition. A dozer with a 6 way blade - maybe - but not a loader.

Here's a way to check the condition of the tracks. I'd ask for these measurements.

To measure internal pin wear measure across a piece of chain composing of 4 links (5 pins). Take a measurement on the upper side of the track and make sure the section is relatively straight and stretched (fairly tight).

450 Deere:
New track chain or new pins and bushings – 25.1”
Track with 75% use left – 25.3”
Track with 50% use left – 25.45”
Track with 25% use left – 25.6”
Track completely worn out - 25.8" (down to soft metal)

To measure the wear on the track chain links, measure the depth from the bottom of the grouser to link running surface where it rides on the rollers.

450 Deere:
New chain – 3.38”
Chain with 75% use left – 3.34”
Chain with 50% use left – 3.28”
Chain with 25% use left – 3.21”

Note that chain links and pins and bushings are surface hardened. Once the wear beyond the state limits, most of the hardness is gone and they wear extra fast.

Note that a 1010 is considered worn out when the 4 link-measurement exceeds 23.5". I ran mine until they hit 24". At that point, I could not keep them on the machine. But I certainly got all the use out of them.