track trying to ride off bottom rollers on steep hillside

[cardoc1975]

I have a small problem. seems that when i am going around a steep hillside the track on the lower side tries to climb over the rollers on the bottom. It never tries to jump off any other time. sprockets aren't sharp and track chain doesn't seem too worn where sprocket drives it. I tightened the track up somewhat and it seems it may have helped it slightly. after i tightened up the track according to the book it seemed to not be riding centered on the front idlers and didn't track as straight as it did before.So I put it back where it was. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Jeremy Lahrmer

[mini kahuna]

it is very hard to guess at what is causing your track problems from behind a computer screen,that being said it sounds like you have worn front idler bushings,the front idler kinda "wobbles" around and miss guides the track off the bottom rollers.
you could also have worn bottom rollers,again causing the track to jump onto the roller flange.
could have a broken of worn down roller flange too.
might have a chain link with a chunk missing out of it.
could be the track chain is worn out and is "snaking" itself off also.
as you can see it could be a ton of different things causing your problems,
going sideways along a hillside exposes any problems on the undercarriage real quick.
you should get that side up off the ground"please be careful",let that side adjuster slack and you should be able to find the loose/worn parts pretty easy,use a bar to wiggle the rollers and front idler around.....don't stick your hands in there.

[Tigerhaze]

I know this doesn't directly address your question but thought it was worth mentioning for those inexperienced with crawlers.

With all sincerity, I would recommend not crossing hillside slopes at anything other than perpendicular to the slope. Besides being hard on the downslope side of your undercarriage and exposing the wear issues, it can also be somewhat unsafe if the slope ends up being a little steeper or uneven than you expect or the downslope side of the hillside is soft or slick. Also if a crawler breaks down in a bad spot, it is easier to winch out or work on if it is not at an oblique angle to the hillside.

[jdemaris]

I have a small problem. seems that when i am going around a steep hillside the track on the lower side tries to climb over the rollers on the bottom.

That's common with worn track pins and bushings. Being worn, they can bend and snake in ways they're not supposed to. This usually leads to throwing a track.

Add a track with loose pins and bushings - along with worn rollers, misaligned track frames and front idlers, and all kinds of things can happen.

I've got two crawlers that do the same thing and all my property is mountainside. I get along fine though, just have to be careful - and if a track starts to feel like it's binding - I back up and let it straigthen istelf out.

If you are cheap, know somebody with a track press, you might be able to turn your pins and bushings and extend their life (if not already done once and not broken through).

[bulldozerman]

I had a similar problem with my front idlers. It "wobbled" side to side. My problem was the brackets that hold on the idler and slide on the channel, they were worn, along with the channel itself. I had a friend come over and build up the channel and brackets with some weld. Then i spent several hours on by back grinding, and that solved my problem.
Branden

[cardoc1975]

I have also noticed a lot of wear in the front idler guides. I will work on those. In the mean time I'll just keep an eye on it while I'm working it.
Thanks for all the help guys

[Lavoy]

Friend of mine fought this on his 420 for quite a while. He replaced front idlers, bushings, shafts, etc, to no avail. About the time he was going to light it on fire, I rebushed his rails, problem solved.
Lavoy

[digitup2]

The older these old Deeres get the less should be expected of them and hilside travle is a first you don't do .So many wear points on tracks and undercarage are maxed out when you do hill side .Several years ago I was gradeing up around a barn with the 750B when the owner decided to get his little Case of bolts out and play .First hillside turn he did and I worked around that dozer for the rest of the day .I don't get paid enough money to do hillside work with new Dozers .Hillside is too hard on sprockets and wears the sides of the rollers .Not to mention what it dose to the track bushings and chain links .I was reading in a contractors publication here that reverse takes 3times the wear of forward and hillside forward takes 35 times the wear bot only15 times the wear in reverse on hillside [hillside them in reverse only ]I know there are jobs these old Deeres can do but when it comes to hillside back them out and leave some life in Johnnie for an other day .Digitup.

[jdemaris]

[quote="digitup2" I know there are jobs these old Deeres can do but when it comes to hillside back them out and leave some life in Johnnie for an other day .Digitup.[/quote]

Much of what you stated is true. But . . . many people only have one machine - and it'd be kind of silly for someone who owns one crawler, lives on a mountain, and feels it can't be used there. I've live on a mountainside and have spent many years running old crawlers back and forth -with no major probleme. That includes Deere, Case, AC , and Cletrac. A person just has to be careful - like with anything else.

Any crawler - if the pins and bushings are loose in the track-chain - is going to have the tracks snake and bow and try to jump off the undercarriage. If the roller-shells are worn, it's even worse. Simple fix - is - fix it. Turn the pins and bushings 180 degrees, put in new ones, or buy new track chains.

[Lavoy]

Only thing I would add is turning pins and bushing reduces length of the chain, but has no effect on snake, it will be the same after as before. The internal wear still exists, and it is the tolerance between pin and bushing that creates or eliminates the snake. Tolerance on a new pin and bushing is roughly .017, 100% worn is .125, and I have had very few rails in to rebush that were anywhere near factory spec. Plus, believe it or not, the pin and bushing wear on the backside as well. Seems dumb, but the wear will be measureable, hence while you will sometimes hear the figure of only 2/3 the hours on the turn as you got on new.
Lavoy

[digitup2]

I am not shure about the oldies but I find on the newer stuff I don't get much run time after a p&b turn and the bushings are banging hard on the sprockets . Like you say bushings have seen there days at that point . Our one operator got 4100 hours and wanted the pins turned we sent them in and didn't get 1100 hours more .After doing the math we now and figuring down time I just put all new U/C on complete including grousers and run for 2500 more hours then give it a new owner. Those two new off brand won't get therebig hours The track service man was out and the report didn't look good .Gona have to buy Deeres again. Digitup.

[mini kahuna]

all very good points guys,a 40 to 50 year old crawler is well......a 40 to 50 year old crawler,the fact that so many are still around is really amazing.

[jdemaris]

Only thing I would add is turning pins and bushing reduces length of the chain, but has no effect on snake, it will be the same after as before.

For the most part true - but . . . turning the pins and bushings can reduce the tendency of the track to snake and walk away from the crawler to a degree. Won't reduce it anywhere near as well, or be a replacement for new ones that are tight - but it helps. Turning puts relatively unworn parts against each other - half round concave to half round convex - and changes the pitch of the chain so it sits inside the sprocket teeth again. By having the chain pitch back to where it's supposed to be, and metal to metal joints fitting properly against each other, the tracks can be run tighter sucessully. Before, with worn out pins and bushings - the tighened track is worked against - but the too-long chain pitch jumping out of the sprocket.

I'm not sure if I'm making sense of this in my writing. I've done plenty and gotten pretty good results. In regard to not gettting the same service life out of turning the pins and bushings? That's wasn't my point. If you have a machine with worn rollers and sprockets - but with some service life left - I assume the track-links are equally worn and thin. By turning the bushings - you are simply extending the life of the tracks to match the rest. Then, when it all wears out - fine - replace all at once.
When it comes to undercarriage - I wouldn't waste my money on new tracks - or new pins and bushings without also installing new sprockets or rims, rollers, etc. In my area, there are several local farmers around that have track presses in their shops. I can take a set of tracks 5 miles down the road and have them back in a day or two - all pins and bushing turned for $150 per track. I call that a good, cheap investment on a crawler that is only used on my farm anyway.
If I was out working proffesionally, everyday, my mindset would be different. #1, I'd probably have a bigger and newer machine.

[digitup2]

I got six late modle Deeres including a 450J three 550Js and a 750 D and older 850C I will bet good money they will be scrap long before fifty years are up but then they will see a lot more hours than the old MCs and 40Cs averaged .So it depends what way you look at it I guess it is a through away scociety we have now but I have been hearing about prices of rebuilding hydrostatic transmisions and a six year old dozer trany is no longer worth rebuilding .Just say good by to the machine at that point .Digitup.

[jdemaris]

I got six late modle Deeres including a 450J three 550Js and a 750 D and older 850C I will bet good money they will be scrap long before fifty years are up but then they will see a lot more hours than the old MCs and 40Cs averaged ..

Yeah, true with many old two-bangers -but many 1010s, 2010s, 350s, 450s, etc. were used 6 days a week for many years - and some still are being used like that. In fact, Deere has refurbished many 350Cs and 450Cs, put new serial # tags on them, and put them back out with new warrantees with a "buy back" program. Strangely enough, Nissan (Datsun) was doing the same thing for awhile with 240Z cars.

Seems to me the difference with the newer stuff is increased labor costs and decreased product support. 30 years ago, reps from Deere Co. claimed they'd warranty any part they ever made if proven to be defective (not worn out). I got a brand new cylinder-block for a 1937 BO because the old one had a bad casting and a sand-flaw. Syracuse rep came by, decided it was indeed a bad casting - and gave me a new one even though it was 40 years old at the time. Try that NOW - it'll never happen. The mindset at most if not all of these companies is NOT forever longevity. They are only legally required to supply parts for seven years after a macine is sold new - so anything beyond that is optional for them. Many parts are farmed out and made elsewhere - which makes future supply even more difficult. And - it seems that's just a fact of life of modern business. If a company like Deere decided to bo back and do thing the "old fashioned" way - they'd probably go out of business. The builders of many excellent machines went out of business year's ago. Making the best is only part of the equation - seems a company has to keep things borderline - and make things just good enough to sell and maintain repuation - and only be the "best" when compared to the competition.