Interesting problem with 440 ICD

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cuznguido
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Interesting problem with 440 ICD

Post by cuznguido » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:23 pm

I recently acquired a 440 ICD that had been sitting in a barn for some time. The only info I could get out of the previous owner was that it would not run. I got it to run in short order (2-53 Detroit) but it has a curious problem in the clutch or transmission. We pulled it along with a farm tractor and the steering clutches seem to function. When the clutch pedal is depressed the brake pedal also goes down with it, as in applying the brakes. Is this normal? With the main trans in neutral, as the clutch is released it kills the engine like it is bound up somewhere. We shut it off to put it in gear (couldn't get it in running) and same thing, it binds up and dies. It does not have a reverser and I do not know if it ever had one. As of right now I do not have a service manual, but will be getting one. My first thought was a stuck clutch, and we tried pulling it to maybe pop it loose, but could change nothing. My big question is what is making it bind up and die like it may be in two gears at once or something. All ideas are greatly appreciated.
Guido

JimAnderson
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Problem

Post by JimAnderson » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:32 pm

Guido,
The clutch and brake pedal should operate separately.The clutch
pedal is keyed to a sleeve that rotates on the brake pedal shaft.A few
years of dirt and rust and the sleeve bonds to the shaft.This is a common
problem.Squirt something like PB blaster,liquid wrench or WD 40 at
the housing end of the clutch pedal and hope it frees things up.
From what you describe I think the trans is locked in two gears
at once.That is easy to check just pull the shifter cover and see
what is going on. JimAnderson

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shinnery
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Post by shinnery » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:46 pm

I have a 440ICD with the clutch and brake pedal problem also. I have tried the penetrating oil around the pedal shafts with no luck. There is a zerk fitting on the clutch pedal where it goes around the brake shaft. I have bought one of the tools designed to clear clogged zerk fittings and I intend to pump some "Kroil" in thru the zerk and see if I can free things up that way. Can't get too enthusiastic about working on it when it is 106 deg. F outside. LOL
Bryce
:)
No trees were hurt in the creation of this message.
But, many electrons were terribly bothered.

440IC/602, 2-440ICD/831 MM UBU-LP, 445N-LP, 445E-LP, BIG MO 400-M, 4 Star-LP M5-D, M5-LP, M602-LP, M670-LP, G900-LP, G900-D, G1000 Vista-LP Case 580CK

cuznguido
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Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:29 pm
Location: Kentucky

Post by cuznguido » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:36 pm

Thanks to JimAnderson and Shinnery for your comments. I have finally gotten back to look at the thing again and sort of narrowed down the problems. Your advice on the clutch pedal was on the money and I will get that sorted out. I took the top off the transmission and had a look-see. It was not locked in two gears as suspected. There appears to be some evidence that there has been some standing water in the trans. Some rust but not nothing really outrageous. As it stands now from what I could see from the top, the countershaft down in the bottom refuses to turn. I can not tell just yet if a bearing has come apart or something is just rusted and stuck. We tried several times to get something to move in either direction, but did not want to try so hard as to break a gear or something. Until I can get time to go further I plan to put some solvent in the transmission and see what happens, but will probably have to break the thing down and sort it out. Have any of you ever seen water do this to a transmission?
Guido

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Gil
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Post by Gil » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:14 pm

There are three shafts in the transmission. Are you sure you are not looking at the power shaft for the PTO? It is engaged by the lever on top of the transmission case beside the shifter.

Best bet is to get that service manual from Lavoy. You should be able to move the slider gears on the shaft by hand. A failed shaft bearing will frequently be determined by cocking on an angle so the gears will not move. You might be able to giggle the shaft and see if it has lateral play - indicating a destroyed bearing.

I would spend a lot of time moving things around inside the case and understanding the descriptions in the manual to try to determine where the problem is before I would start going down the path of tearing the transmission apart.

I have often said that John Deere built the JD440 by starting with the transmission and then bolting things onto it until they had a crawler. The transmission is buried and you have to take off a bunch of stuff to get to it.
JD440-ICD loader; JD440-IC bulldozer; JD440-ICD backhoe; JD440-I backhoe; JD440-I tractor; + five recumbent JD440-ICs

Ray III
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Post by Ray III » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:12 pm

Even light rust will lock a transmission up good. I had the same thing happen in a riding mower that sat a long time, it looked clean enough but was solid as a rock till I took it all apart.

I would try your idea of filling it with solvent because taking a tractor transmission apart (which means taking the tractor apart) isn't something you want to get involved with.

Coke is cheap and they say it dissolves rust...

JimAnderson
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440 won't move

Post by JimAnderson » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:55 am

Guido,
If there is evidence that water and rust are causing the locked
up problem then you should look at a tear down.The gears can tolerate
a little flash rust and operate but there are some small roller bearings
in the idler gear that will ruin the pto shaft if rusty.If the other bearings
are rusted you may get transmission freed up but you will soon have
bearing failure and could do collateral damage to some expensive
parts.I agree that the transmission is a pain to get at but I believe
you will have to at some point.If you do it now you will save money
in the long run.One good thing about a teardown is that you will have
better access to the brake and clutch pedal shafts.JimAnderson

cuznguido
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Location: Kentucky

Post by cuznguido » Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:37 pm

Thanks much fellas. A teardown it is gonna be. I have no desire to do a total restore at this time, since I want to use this thing a bit, but I also do not like to half do things. While it is down, I will fix what I take apart, and will add a reverser if I can find a good one that is not too expensive. I will also be watching for a good winch to put on it. Thanks again.
Guido

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Mark Birdeau
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Post by Mark Birdeau » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:52 pm

Guido, if you can pull it without any problems then the lower shafts most likely aren't the problem or is the engine turning when you pull it?. If the engine isn't turning then it must be in the input or pto. Can you turn the top shaft with a bar with out turning the engine?

If you can pull it without the engine turning then the bottom shaft is working as it should and I would guess the power shaft is also. Mark:

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