450 crankcase oil contamination

smokydiesel · Post by **smokydiesel** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:38 am

I'm looking for some help on a ongoing problem I am having with my 450. Last fall I noticed some whitish oily build up on my dipstick. I assumed this was antifreeze and proceeded to change the head gasket. The old one looked fine as well as everything else inside. Changed the oil and filter a couple of times. Long story short it didn't fix the problem. Now I am leaning towards fuel contamination. Reason why is that the injection pump has always seeped a little from around the pump base but seems to have gotten a little worse since my problem started. At one point I had thought it may have been hydraulic fluid leaking into the engine from the power steering pump but have flushed and replaced it with motor oil. Am I on the right track here? Thanks in advance, Paul

Tigerhaze · Post by **Tigerhaze** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:47 am

Here is my $0.02

The umbrella seals on the injection pump shaft may be bad, allowing fuel to get into the crankcase.

The other possibility is that the seals on the bottom of the engine sleeves are allowing leakage of coolant into the crankcase.

smokydiesel · Post by **smokydiesel** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:01 am

My additional question is would diesel fuel contamination result in build up of whitish oil fluid building up on the dipstick or is this strictly a symptom of water in the oil???

LeonardL · Post by **LeonardL** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:45 am

Your fuel will not cause what you are describing. Nor will hydraulic oil. Fuel will only dilute the engine oil and cause it to become thinner and your oil level will increase on the dipstick. It will also smell like diesel fuel.
I suspect what has already been said. That being your cylinder liner seals. I hope you are lucky enough to not have other issues as well as the seals. Such as a cracked head or the engine block being eroded around the grooves for the liner seals.
I have seen these older engines that have never had the coolant changed actually build an acidic nature to the coolant. When this happens you get electrolysis that will eat away at the metals of the liners and the engine block. Lets hope for your sake that it is only the liners that have this. I have seen this actually eat all the way through the liners to the inside of the cylinder. Not good!

Just a note for everyone who reads this, you need to change your coolant at least every three years. Every two years is even better. I'm also not a fan of the extended life coolants. I like to stay with the good ole original Etheline Glycol and change it once in a while.

Tigerhaze · Post by **Tigerhaze** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:53 am

LeonardL wrote: Just a note for everyone who reads this, you need to change your coolant at least every three years. Every two years is even better. I'm also not a fan of the extended life coolants. I like to stay with the good ole original Etheline Glycol and change it once in a while.

Hi Leonard- I have also heard there is an additive that should be put into diesel coolant to help prevent the acidification? Is that what you meant by extended life coolant?What do you think about this?

http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/ryder ... tDetail.do

smokydiesel · Post by **smokydiesel** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:57 am

Thanks Leonard. I have the service manual for the machine and have already been into the engine to replace the head gasket. Now my question is to replace the sleeve seals in the engine i assume i have to pull it out of the machine to remove the crank,rods and pistons to get the sleeves out? Or can I do this in the machine? Thanks

LeonardL · Post by **LeonardL** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:48 am

You can do this in the machine. I personally like pulling the engine just because I don't like laying on my back to do this. But it can be done!

I would put it up on some good tie blocks for extra clearance. Just make sure you watch the crank shaft and don't damage it. I usually put some duck tape or masking tape around the crank so as not to ding it up.
When you get to the grooves in the block make sure you clean them thoroughly. I use a drill and I have a small wire brush on an extension to clean these grooves. They need to be really clean. Some of these other guys may have a better suggestion for doing this.
One guy I know has used paint remover to soak the grooves first. However I have never done this and don't know if it helps or not. I always just wire brushed them out.
When you reinstall the sleeves, your manual will call for liner soap from Deere and I don't think it is available any longer. I use Dawn dish liquid and I would think that any good liquid soap will work. I used Dawn because it is what I had.
Let us know what you find!

And good luck!!!!

LeonardL · Post by **LeonardL** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:04 am

Sorry I didn't see the other question before I posted.....

The extended life coolant I was talking about is the five year and I think there is even a ten year version out there. I really don't like these products because even in the best of conditions I've never had good luck with them. I know some people swear by the stuff but I don't. It is a matter of opinion I guess.
The additives that are available are a good thing. Most of these will have an anti-acid in them that does help. I'm okay with those products, just remember to use them each time you flush your systems out.
The issue arises because most if not all of us will use regular tap water to dilute the coolant when we do change or add it to the machine or vehicle. We really should use "Distilled Water". I'm as guilty as the next guy to not do this.
The minerals we all have in our water is usually the culprit. Here in my part of Missouri we have Lime laced with Iron and it is really bad for screwing up coolant. Other parts of the country have different minerals and or chemical compounds in their water that cause issues.
Alkaline and Chlorine are two that I know of that will escalate the acidic issue.
It's not so much these chemicals and minerals but a combination of when you add all the heat, motion and the combustion process that causes electrolysis.
Sorry I got so long winded.... But I hope this helps.

smokydiesel · Post by **smokydiesel** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:20 am

Does anyone have a good source for sleeves and seals? Or better yet anyone want to buy a discount price 450? Thanks Paul

Patrick · Post by **Patrick** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:42 pm

Could the vent tube be pluged? Was there a lot of noticeable water when you changed the oil? You could send an oil sample to a lab that does oil analysis. That would tell you what is in your oil. The company I work for would do that for their trucks. I dont see why it wouldnt work for a dozer too.

digitup2 · Post by **digitup2** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:19 pm

The higher acidic conditions of older antifreeze is only part of the sleeve deterioration the other things in the story are heat and time these are also largest contributors to the deterioration of the sleeve as well so many contributing factors are working to kill your engine at the same time .Deere also has a coolant conditioner and this is good stuff to extend your coolant for a year or so but NOT longer even some of the additives in this are contributors too the cavitation action on the sleeves .I never leave the coolant in a dozer, hoe or any of my other expensive Diesel motors [And I have a few of them]for more than Three years max add a year for additive .Then give the old stuff to your favorite recyclers and keep newer stuff in the motor.Digitup.

smokydiesel · Post by **smokydiesel** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:22 am

When I changed the oil multiple times now I had let it set for a day or so to see if water pooled on the bottom but it seems that thier is none that I can see. All thier ever is a white oily buildup at the top of the dipstick tube after maybe 3-4 hours of running. The oil pressure stays steady. The oil level stays the same. Apparently it is a slow and minor leak at the moment. It sounds like what I had feared that the liners and or seals have come to the end of thier life. After thinking over what has been said here overnight I was thinking of looking for a complete engine to just swap into the machine instead of doing a resleeve. I will do the oil sample first to confirm first what seems to be obvious. Thanks guys.

KenP · Post by **KenP** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:28 am

deleted

LeonardL · Post by **LeonardL** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:11 am

I will back up what Ken and others have said here. I was working under the assumption that you were getting a lot of water in your oil and knew it was coolant. That's what I get for assuming things.
Did you know that "Assuming" is the number one thinking error that we humans are capable of?
Ken is right that if you are only getting a sloppy looking mess on the dip stick it could very well be just condensation. Older engines tend to have a little "Blow By". This is compression that leaks past the compression rings during the compression stroke and the power stroke of the engine. It then escapes through the crank case and can cause at times great amounts of condensation in the crankcase. Thus the milky buildup.
It was mentioned before that it might be your vent tube being stopped up. Good suggestion!! This would be a good thing to look at. Because this is where your crankcase vents this blow by. If it is blocked or partially blocked, it will try to vent out the dipstick tube. So, if the vent tube is even partially blocked it will still need to be opened up.
The stuff on your dipstick is the same thing you will find in the vent tube. A milky nasty looking substance that looks like something the cat coughed up.
Sorry I may have sent you reeling down a doomed engine path!!! That was entirely my fault.

I jumped to a conclusion without hesitation and I apologize!
Do like Ken has suggested and get a test done on the oil. It's money well spent and will tell you what is going on in the engine.
Don't give up on the old girl just yet! Good Luck!

smokydiesel · Post by **smokydiesel** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:24 am

Thanks for the glimmer of hope guys! This time of year I don't use it much maybe a half hour or so at a time to plow snow with and should have mentioned earlier that it hardly ever gets over 100 degree water temp. Maybe all I need is to figure out a way to get the temp up to get rid of the hopefully condensation. This machine definantly has some blow by but still has good power. Any ideas on how to get the operating temp higher? Cover the radiator, take off the fan??? I'm liking the way this is sounding better. Thanks Paul

JDcrawlers Messageboard

450 crankcase oil contamination

450 crankcase oil contamination

Who is online