Steering problems 350b

[hdokes]

Ok... My pea brain is gonna have to ponder this one a bit. Unless you are talking about whacking the pin past the first entry point of the link and THEN using the clamp to push it into the other side.... I can see that... maybe. The span is still greater than that of the clamp. It's the whacking to get the pin to that point that seems a bit out of control for me. If I could I'd rather have a 'controlled' environment, to the extent that is possible with so much pressure/force being exerted, and I don't readily see the clamp allowing it. The clamp inside measurement is 6" and the pin plus the link is 10.5". I'm obviously overlooking something.... and it's probably staring me right in the face. Thinking this through.... I could probably remove the bushing to use the clamp to get the pin started and then put the bushing back before allowing the pin to get that far. At that point the pin is pretty well secured in the link and I could use the BFH to get it to the other side of the link but as I stated above, I still have a measurement difference that I can't see allowing it to work. Can you elaborate Jim?

On another note.... my observation of the crawler as a whole is that you actually have two 'frames' that make it up. You've got the standard jd350-b frame and then you've got what I will call the 'model specific' frame. In my case... I have the jd350b-b which is with the front end loader. It has it's own frame (shell) that sits over the top of the standard frame. It does appear however that the only connectivity between the two frames is at the forward and rear supports which span between each track. I just want to make sure I am correct that if I remove the 4 herculean bolts that affix the rear cross support to the final drive assembly that something isn't going to severely drop. I have the standard frame supported by large timbers underneath at the rear of the crawler. I have the rear cross supports supported on each side with 20 ton jacks. The rear connectivity...and therefore support that I see between the standard frame and the loader frame looks to be from the loader frame, bolted into the cross support which is bolted to the final drive which is bolted to the standard frame. That about sum it up? So my thinking is... and I actually do get paid to think... so that makes me a professional thinker , <--- deer in the head lights look, that if I remove the bolts between the rear cross support to the final drive so I can take it off, as long as I have all points I described above supported.... nothing should give.... right? If anyone of those points fails... then all bets are off?

[dtoots1]

on my 440...when i went to put track back together....my pin was still stuck in the inner link....so i got the ole fire wrench out...heated around the hole and also heated around the hole on the other half link...lined up the pin and link holes tapped it with 3 lb short handle sledge and pin zipped clean thru entire link..and splashed some of the never seize in my face,,,sure surprised me ..much easier to heat half link and send her thru!!!

dtoots1

[hdokes]

Howdy dtools1,

Pulled my pin completely out. Did I mention that it was NOT the master pin? After reading through the forum threads I found that others were just removing any pin so not fully being able to distinguish a regular pin from the master (I think I have but can't be positive) I just went for any 'ol pin and damned if I didn't knock it out. Once out I wanted to check it out thoroughly and it looks to be in pretty good shape.... in fact.. everything related to the tracks seems to be in pretty good shape except a broken tension spring (Possibly inside and outside springs) on one side and the fact that the protective plates are missing. Figuring I can fabricate a set if I can't find a set for a good price... Queue up Lavoy....

[jsal]

once the pin is past the first side you can use it to press it the rest of the way

[hdokes]

..... Where's my theme from Space Odyssey 2001

I have tasted success.... And it is good! So.... I have managed to remove the final drive from one side in it's entirety. After getting over the hurdle of whether or not I was going to crush some portion of my bod, making me just a grease spot under the crawler, not knowing what was going to fall where.... I removed all the bolts to the final drive (not near as bad as I thought it might be) and used a hydraulic ram to leverage against the opposing final drive and push it out mindful of not to 'force' anything. I could tell there was something binding and discovered that the bottom portion of the brake band was trying to go with the drum and was binding the whole works. Fortunately I was able to get in with a pry bar and work the band back into it's original position and essentially alternated doing both till I had the final drive completely out. The band will require replacing however. Here are pics associated with that process:


10 ton hydraulic ram pushing against the opposing final drive with initial separation. Note the two longer bolts which were removed with the wheel weight on the final drive hub. They played an instrumental roll in insuring the final drive came straight out and provided support as well.


The combination of the extended bolts and the gantry crane worked out great here.


Ewwwwwwwwwwwww.... gonna be some work in here!


And here. I'm hoping I can 'refurbish' the pressure plate here. I have cleaned these up before after their having been rusted up on an 'ol Ford 2000 tractor and it worked out really nice. Sand blasted it and it looked like new. Hopefully I can do that with this one too.

To see more pics on the removal of the final drive go to http://jdcrawlers.lcent.com:8000/johnde ... =11&page=1

[dtoots1]

hdokes,
looks like you did things nice.....and very carefully!....as noted in my post on the 440 getting it back in can be a real booger.....i actually used a rubber mallet (3x6 in head) and kept bumping it back in and watching on my brake band....which i had (brand new so rite) loosened just as far as i could without getting off thread....that bumping vibration action actually helped get it thru the brake lining....i kept turning the large bolts at the axle/final by my fingers as i was bumping and could literally turn with my fingers after tightening carefully with wrench each time i bumped her....course my final is much smaller but sure is one heavy son of gun.
how you posting pics?? get something set up fot them?
best to you
dtoots1

[hdokes]

Hi dtools,

Yeah... been thinking in the back of my mind what the reinstall is going to be like. I think I have a good solution which includes using the long bolts again for alignment. I have a hydraulic vertical lift on wheels that I'm thinking may work just right but will need to move the track on the floor to be able to use it.

You asked about the posting of pics. I'ma kinda excited about this. I have been working on a dedicated pic server for JDCrawlers.com and it is now up and functional. I am working out details with Lavoy but suffice it to say it should be available to all JDCrawler registered users by early next week. It is currently serving up the pics that I have posted to my comments in the threads. I'm sure there will be an announcement of sorts to come.

[dtoots1]

that is really great news....i was unable to post pics so i never did take any ....but essentially would have looked just a lot like what your set up accomplished....Lavoy used clamps to get pressure plate back on without having to use the mounting bolts ...so that they were not stressed....i had to make my own clamp system.. bolts and bit of flat steel...since was absolutely no room for any kind of c clamps...worked but had to work very carefully keeping equal pressure at all 3 locations....and as Lavoy says...get lock washer on the head of bolt...not on the nut side.. on yours you mite not have the thru bolts like my 440 does so mite be bit different...

keep brake band loose and watch as you move in carefully

will be watching for pic announcement

good luck
dtoots1

[hdokes]

Okie dokie.

Got the clutch pressure plate and plates removed. Upon first inspection I recognized that the fingers of the pressure plate were fully depressed and remained that way when I pulled it off. I was able to use some pb blaster on it and work them loose again and after doing so they returned to their original default position with the springs fully extended.

I then removed the fibre (I think) and steel plates one by one from the drum. Upon initial inspection they looked like they are in not excellent but very good condition. No breaks, no crumbling, no teeth missing (like my grandsons), nothing bent, warped, or otherwise looking out of whack. The plates were not completely smooth but there was not a major build up of anything either.

So.... I cleaned them up and put them back in. Keep in mind I did not remove the last remaining fibre disc that is to the inside of the oversized snap ring nor the snap ring itself inside the drum. The axle turned very freely and the last disc turned with it. As I began to reassemble the discs, I noticed that there was a considerable amount of space between the snap ring and the inside fibre plate. Even after putting the first metal plate in, my first thought was, I don't think the next fibre plate is going to make contact with the inner steel plate before it comes into contact with the snap ring. After getting all the plates back in and then reattaching the pressure plate... I noticed the fingers slowly draw completely inward as I snugged down the bolts to the drum. There was literally no travel left in them. So... the first thought was... someone put in too many discs. As I took pics... I looked at the pics.... yep... 7 metal and 8 fibre... just what was spose to be. So...next thought came back to that retaining (clip) ring.

Questions are.... how many discs should be to the inside of that retaining ring. The parts manual is not clear on this. Also, does anyone know what the thickness of the fibre plates should be? I'm measuring 180 thousandths consistently. I'm certain the steel ones did not expand and I would bet money (tho I'd probably lose) that the fibre ones have not as well as they looked that good.

Here are some pics taken of the clutch space and discs:

[dtoots1]

hdokes,

ok...on the fingers on the steels they go into grooves in the brake drum....mine had rust particles built up on each and i took scraper blade to each slot and then air gunned/vacuumed all dust etc out of these slots.....next thing i do know that the fingers on the pressure plate can and should be adjusted..particularly when NEW...(with clutch gauge see Lavoy)..(by the somewhere is mentioned that used or old fibres/plates the gauge is made for NEW stuff) .i wonder if they were ever done so by whoever before....if you can adjust the clutch fingers to where they are all at the same height ( i would think an inch or so would work) that you believe will operate properly they will probably do so.....my new pressure plate cost at believe was $65 and my fingers did move down some but do not think they bottomed out....there sure is a lot of pressure on those clutches.....

my fibres were all basically glazed and steels were rusty and had glazed patches thru out both surfaces....i replaced both steels and fibres...and pressure plate as well as throw out bearing and bearing carrier sleeve too!!! i did not pull shaft and pilot bearing etc...yours sounds just a bit different in that you don't seem to be able to get the 1st steel and fibre out without bothering the snap ring/?????

by the way speaking of that....seems i found my original snap ring bent and curled in bottom of my final , since i looked and no ring in the groove....i did have shaft and snap ring in donor parts so i did put that ring on....i didn't recognize the thing bent and curled till i noticed the empty groove....sure don't know what did that!!!! but don't see no other damage to anything else.

keep us posted
dtoots1

[hdokes]

Yes... it is my understanding that at least one fibre ring should be to the inside of the snap ring.... I question if there actually should be two. There is some adjustment remaining (about 50%) in the pressure plate fingers and I hadn't thought about taken that out yet. I would like to find out what the thickness of the steel and fibre plates should be to see if that is the reason there isn't enough room for the current setting of the fingers (Lavoy?). The pressure plate for mine is more about twice what you paid for yours dtools1 but I think it itself is in good shape now that I've cleaned it up and have the fingers moving properly again (Used a 1 ton arbor press to exercise them after soaking them in pb blaster). Those springs are quite strong.

I did the same thing with the internal slots on the drum as you did. Worked out well too. Throw out bearing definitely needs to be replaced and probably the bearing carrier sleeve as it is a bit rough on the edge. While I have found the bearing at palatable prices, I have never see the sleeve available anywhere.

[hdokes]

So I have identified from one source that the thickness on the fibre plates are suppose to be 180 thousandths which is exactly what I have but I have also found another site that says it should be 177 thousandths. If the latter is true and I find all my plates are at 180 then it would suggest I have some expansion going on in the plate but again... I can not determine if these are fibre or bimetallic. One would think that expansion would be irregular around the disc and mine are definitely 'regular'.... 180 thousandths all the way around. Still.... if it is suppose to be 177 then the difference of 3 thousands across 8 discs would be a total of 24 thousandths off. I'm not really sure if 24 thousandths is enough to make the difference for what I'm seeing on the pressure plate fingers. Still in a holding pattern here until I can figure this out for sure.

[dtoots1]

hdokes,

you have not said whether you have the clutch gauge and have used it....again not sure you can on "used clutches" etc....but it would at least give you some idea as to maybe adjust the fingers to some acceptable height on the pressure plate...they get adjusted after plate attached etc....using gauge you can get some idea as to travel space for clutch operation...they sure do Not move far before they are dis-engaged.

wonder where Lavoy is at on this....that ol boy sure does know a whole bunch bout these machines...need his 2 cents.....

not to change subject...but my clutch got collapsed by 220lb friend getting a bit excited that the machine would not turn and really put jerking pressure to it.....so just wonder what actually happened on yours to lock the fingers down like that.....otherside of that if same occurred to yours....nevermind that....from what you saying you essentially have NEW fibres measurements....measure the steels and set the clutch with the gauge same as new.

just curious...what is other steering brake like..where is the throwout bearing on the carrier locking groove??...if almost out of the slot..then you essentially have new clutches in it too.

dtoots1

[hdokes]

As this is my first rodeo on steering clutches I thought I would do one side first than the other should be a breeze.... right?

I do not have the clutch gauge. Spose I should start looking for one. I think I remember in my quest for knowledge on the webernet seeing some references to measurements and how to make one but that was early in the game.... I've slept since the.... several times.

The throw out bearing does look to be in questionable shape. I've figured I'd go ahead and replace it. The sleeve for the bearing has it's edges kinda rolled over and thought I should replace it too but I have not seen that as an available part anywhere like the bearing, discs, brake band, etc.

Having never seen the discs before I do not know if what I have is fibre or bimetallic. I know someone has been into this thing before as there is blue RTV all over the final drive seams like slobber on a St. Barnard and the discs don't resemble the type of fibre I am used to seeing on a tractor clutch assembly but then again... I've never seen these kind of clutches before.

I've been hoping that Lavoy would chime in soon but haven't heard anything yet.

[dtoots1]

hdokes,

Lavoy usually has just about everything needed for these things......i know he did have gauge for the clutches and someone was making additional available....he had the carrier sleeve for my throwout bearing so assume he also has available for 350's etc....i think gauge for the 2010 was same as used for the 350s...is actually 2 gauges in one...for engine and steering...


fella tagged as notmeu on this site was one of them had gauges it seems to me....send him a pm and lavoy as well..i would rather deal with Lavoy then take chance on inferior parts and have to do over....and yes these fibres...are NOT the same as any clutches i have ever seen...they are rather hard and kinda smooth and do look like your pics..just newer

by the way,,,when putting final back on..you simply only have to clean and paint both bolt facings to seal them....tho i don't recall if yours are supposed to be what is known as wet clutches...seems some of these machines have that, tho generally they say if oil gets on these things they toast!!!!

what your book say??

dtoots1