Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

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rcfra
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Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by rcfra » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:40 pm

Hi, proud new owner of a 450B dozer here (external manual blade, logging winch). We ran the dozer through all operations just fine while looking at it, and it ran and drove quite nicely. Then got it delivered and two days later it blew oil all over the road. Saw hydraulic reservoir is low and all other fluids looked ok so poked around and while unable to see an exact point of leak it seems to be somewhere on the high pressure line from pump on front of engine running back to the control valve (leak probably about 1/2 way down the line). This dozer does have a full skid plate underneath (not sure if this is normal or not) so it's fairly hard to see anything. I disconnected both ends of the high pressure line but am unable to move it more than 1/2 inch in either direction. I did scrape out all the packed dirt I could reach thinking maybe it was just gummed up but still not getting it out. I'm reluctant to drop the skid plate as it looks pretty heavy and awkward but I'm thinking its going to be required. I'm about to go grab some jacks and stands to hold the plate once I drop it and just go for it but figured I'd check here for any other suggestions on getting this line out before I do. Any thoughts?

I did purchase the operation, technical manual, and parts manual PDF's but they seem to lack detail around the hydraulic system, just a small diagram for the hydraulic drive shaft and remote cylinder... nothing on the lines or control valves.

Thanks

Jim B
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Re: Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by Jim B » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:33 pm

Welcome to the Board.

Did you purchase a pdf copy of John Deere TM1033 or something else? It has the typical hydraulic system info. The copy of that technical manual I have shows circuits and has a good bit of info on the system and components for loaders and dozers. If you are looking for the manual to tell you where each line physically runs and how to remove it; they don't do that. You have to remember these manuals are written for, and expected to be used by, mechanics with some experience and/or training. Over the years as a mechanic, I have had to search out where many hydraulic lines, steel tubes and hoses, were run, how to remove them, and how to replace or repair them, even when I had the manufacturer's manuals. Also

A full belly pan is standard for protection on crawlers. Yes, you will likely have to drop the belly pan (yes, it is heavy and even more so with the built up material that is likely in it) to access that line, and even then it may not be easy to work on the line.

I would expect it is possible in your case a hole has worn or a crack developed in the steel tube. I am guessing it is steel unless that already failed and a previous owner has run a hose to bypass that original tube/line. The line should be clamped/secured along the frame. Depending on the failure you might be able to braze the failed area, if you can drain and clean the oil from it. While not the prefect fix, there are many machines that have had a hydraulic hose installed along side that line, rather than trying to repair the tube. if you decide to do that secure it well and protect it from moving parts/linkages which could wear through it. I am thinking it is either 5/8" or 3/4", you will need to confirm which and match size and fittings as needed. It looks like AU40011 (the line along the frame) subs to AT52883 and may be available to order through JD, you would have to confirm with your dealer. A hydraulic shop that bends tubing might be able to duplicate it, once you have it out.

rcfra
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Re: Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by rcfra » Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:43 pm

Thanks for the info. I did find the hydraulic diagram in the technical manual when I went back and looked again, somehow missed it the first time and went digging for more info in the parts catalog which doesn't have much. The high pressure line is a hose on mine, looks simple enough for a hydraulic shop to make a duplicate. The low pressure line is a larger hardline next to it. Not sure if the high pressure was previously replaced. I'll drop the pan this afternoon and hopefully can access the clamp or whatever else is binding it from being removed so I can get this thing back to work :)

Jim B
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Re: Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by Jim B » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:25 pm

If your blade is hydraulic lift with manual tilt and angle, it is a 6410 blade. The 6410 blade hydraulic lines, valves, and other components related to the blade are in parts catalog PC920. They did not start including the blades in the crawler catalog until the 450C model. If you don't have a copy of the blade parts catalog here is a link to it to help you figure out what you should find. https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/nav ... ment/71522

rcfra
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Re: Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by rcfra » Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:15 pm

I got it out. I was able to lower the front of the belly skid about 8” on a jack and block it to gain access to the lines. The two lines had several zip ties holding them together. Once I cut those I was able to pull the high pressure line out the gap in the side pretty easily and made it to the parts shop in time to get a new one fabricated before they closed. Should be a pretty quick install tomorrow. The one I took out was old but hard to identify any markings and it had several splits mid hose.

rcfra
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Re: Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by rcfra » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:37 pm

Well I got the new high pressure line installed this morning but unfortunately that was not the source of the leak, looks like it is the return line that was right next to it. That one is still the old steel line. Looks like it wore right where it runs against a section of frame. Guess I'll have to figure out how to cut that out and replace it with a new vacuum/return hose. What a bummer.

Labparamour
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Re: Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by Labparamour » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:27 pm

I have a 450B track loader.
The low-pressure return line on mine is two-piece, with a rubber coupling connecting the two.
A hydraulic shop was able to provide me with a 6” length of oil resistant hose.
The high pressure lines on mine had a bad spot.
I was able to thoroughly clean and braze the worn area.
Being low/no pressure, you should be able to braze up the suction line on yours no problem.

Jim B
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Re: Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by Jim B » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:03 pm

As Labparamour mentioned. If you use hose on your pump suction line be sure you get/use a hose rated for oil service or you will be back there fixing it again sooner, rather than later. I think you are actually looking at the suction line going to the pump, the return is between the control valve and reservoir.

rcfra
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Re: Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by rcfra » Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:30 pm

Well it turned out I was way off with my troubleshooting, as it was actually a transmission cooler hose that was leaking. The location was right where the hoses are tight together and out of direct line of sight and with the dirt packed in there it made it look like the hydraulic lines were leaking. Easy fix and glad I didn't have to replace the suction line. I am still glad I replaced the high pressure hydraulic line as it looked rough. Dozer is running good now and we've been using it to skid firewood logs all day. Thanks for the advice, it's great to have a resource like this with lots of experience and opinions to keep these older machines running.

Next project is swapping in a one-wire alternator as the old one seems to be acting up and installing some LED work lights.

Jim B
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Re: Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by Jim B » Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:06 pm

Just checking on what you are using for transmission and hydraulic oil. I think your 450B manual says to use 303 and that spec is way out of date. You need to use JD Hy-Gard or other UTHF meeting John Deere's J20C spec.

If you don't know the history, John Deere doesn't make 303 any more as it used sperm whale oil as a component. Whale oil became unavailable when the endangered species act was passed. JD 303 was a formula, not a spec, so there is no standard to test the current oils that are called 303. Most are very low quality, there are lawsuits over 303, and some places have outright banned 303. I do not recommend you using any 303 oil in your crawler.

rcfra
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Re: Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by rcfra » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:55 pm

Jim B wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:06 pm
Just checking on what you are using for transmission and hydraulic oil.
Thanks Jim, I had read somewhere else to avoid 303 and use J20C and so I'm using Shell Rotella HD which was the best stuff I could find in a hurry.

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DrLoch
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Re: Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by DrLoch » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:55 am

[/quote]

Thanks Jim, I had read somewhere else to avoid 303 and use J20C and so I'm using Shell Rotella HD which was the best stuff I could find in a hurry.
[/quote]

I'm somewhat confused, which happens often nowadays, are you saying you used Rotella HD in the transmission?
450C Track Loader
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Jim B
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Re: Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by Jim B » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:13 am

They use "Rotella" in many oil/fluid names. He is correct Shell Rotella HD Tractor Fluid meets J20C, I am assuming he is using the Tractor Fluid.
When I searched Shell Rotella HD, the Tractor Fluid came up, not engine oil. https://shell-livedocs.com/data/publish ... 2eaf83.pdf

Labparamour
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Re: Seeking advice on replacing high pressure hydraulic line in a 450B

Post by Labparamour » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:59 am

Glad you had an easy fix.
If only they were all like that :mrgreen:

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