So Gentlemen,
I have a 70s model 450C crawler dozer. I recently began experiencing a problem with it acting like it's running out of fuel or gelling up. I made it out of the woods and back to the shop. It was losing RPMs at high throttle and acted like it was stalling. I made it outta.the woods and just let it idle. It held idle (1100) just fine but if I tried to feed it more it was all over the place. It's been cold up here on and off for a few weeks. That's 21 for a high and 5 to -5 at.night. I always.treat.my.fuel with power service.as.we.have few options where to buy our fuel. We have "Maverick" stations where the fuel is $5.00 gal and the water is free. I have had my hoe and skidster freeze up a few times.
I put a couple cups of Red Power service in the sized and let it sit a few hours and changed fuel/water separator as well. When I put new water separator on it only filled about 1/3 full. I started her up and let warm up 1/2 hour as always when -25 feathering throttle up and down and climbed on and started plowing. Other than random surges which I assume were pockets of cetane boost she ran fine. After 2 hrs I cooled down and shut off. Question is should fuel separator have filled up.after all this or do I need to manually fill this module?
Fuel delivery
Re: Fuel delivery
Are you running winter blend fuel? Are you running #2 heating fuel? I ask as some people do. If you are not running true winter blend fuel, I would get 5-10 gallons of K1 and add to the fuel tank to cut the fuel and see what that does. I have had to do that when equipment still had summer blend in the tank and cold weather hit.
You say you changed the fuel/water separator. I am assuming you are referring to the OEM rectangular glass fuel filter, not an actual added fuel/water separator. The filter should fill when bled out. You asked if you should manually fill it. Did you use the filter bleed plug and the hand lever on the transfer pump to fill it as described in the Operator's manual to bleed the out of the filter after a change, or running out of fuel?
Does your fuel tank have the sump bowl made as part of the tank bottom? If so, have you drained it (info about this is in the Operator's manual) to see if there is any water or trash gathered there? If you can't get anything out of the drain, there is something (maybe ice) in the bowl. The parts catalog shows the 450C has a screen inside the fuel tank behind the fuel suction line valve. Draining the tank would be required to check/service that screen.
How do you transport/transfer fuel to your 450C?
You say you changed the fuel/water separator. I am assuming you are referring to the OEM rectangular glass fuel filter, not an actual added fuel/water separator. The filter should fill when bled out. You asked if you should manually fill it. Did you use the filter bleed plug and the hand lever on the transfer pump to fill it as described in the Operator's manual to bleed the out of the filter after a change, or running out of fuel?
Does your fuel tank have the sump bowl made as part of the tank bottom? If so, have you drained it (info about this is in the Operator's manual) to see if there is any water or trash gathered there? If you can't get anything out of the drain, there is something (maybe ice) in the bowl. The parts catalog shows the 450C has a screen inside the fuel tank behind the fuel suction line valve. Draining the tank would be required to check/service that screen.
How do you transport/transfer fuel to your 450C?
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Blademaster
- 420 crawler
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:04 pm
Re: Fuel delivery
Hey Jim thanks for the reply. I run red fuel all year. In winter I haul it in those big tall 6 gal racing style plastic cans which are new this summer. Also run power service every tank, gray in summer white in winter. Its the same stuff we ran in trucks and all the big stuff on pipelines.
Yes I was referring to that glass rectangle filter deal on the side of the motor. I took the old one off easy enough and it was full of kinda gnarly dark fuel. I don't believe that thing had been changed in quite some time. It came from an estate sale down in Meeker, CO. I actually knew the old boy and he loved to tinker with stuff and this was his baby. I put 400 hrs on it since I've owned it, I've changed oil every fall and grease every day just not the fuel filter. So I put the new fuel filter on and started pumping the hand pump it only filled about 2" and would take no more. So I cracked the line going into the filter and continued pumping with hand pump and it took no more. So I started it and she fired right up figuring it would draw fuel and fill the rest of the way up after awhile at idle and then feathered the throttle and even ran it for about 20 minutes pushing snow, cooled down and shut down. It fan like a champ but that filter never filled up, that's why I asked about filling it manually. We were supposed to be getting a cold snap -0 nighttime, 12-15 above for a few days so just to be safe I ran about a cup of the power service outta the red can into the system as well. I always keep the tank topped off. I'm thinking of putting an inline filter off the bottom of the tank, but haven't done it yet.
Yes I was referring to that glass rectangle filter deal on the side of the motor. I took the old one off easy enough and it was full of kinda gnarly dark fuel. I don't believe that thing had been changed in quite some time. It came from an estate sale down in Meeker, CO. I actually knew the old boy and he loved to tinker with stuff and this was his baby. I put 400 hrs on it since I've owned it, I've changed oil every fall and grease every day just not the fuel filter. So I put the new fuel filter on and started pumping the hand pump it only filled about 2" and would take no more. So I cracked the line going into the filter and continued pumping with hand pump and it took no more. So I started it and she fired right up figuring it would draw fuel and fill the rest of the way up after awhile at idle and then feathered the throttle and even ran it for about 20 minutes pushing snow, cooled down and shut down. It fan like a champ but that filter never filled up, that's why I asked about filling it manually. We were supposed to be getting a cold snap -0 nighttime, 12-15 above for a few days so just to be safe I ran about a cup of the power service outta the red can into the system as well. I always keep the tank topped off. I'm thinking of putting an inline filter off the bottom of the tank, but haven't done it yet.
Re: Fuel delivery
Red fuel is dyed for use off-road use as it is sold without the road use taxes. Use of red dyed fuel in on-road vehicles can bring large fines due to the no road issue. Both types of diesel fuel can be had in summer or winter blends in most cold weather areas. So, regardless of the color, are you running winter blend fuel for this time of year?
You changed the fuel filter. What brand filter and what part number? Several of those square glass filters look alike but are not.
Cracking the line going into the filter from the transfer pump will not bleed the filter of air. If anything, you would crack the line going out of the filter, however there is a bleed er on that housing for that purpose. It is a hex plug at the right-side corner, near the top of the housing.
I would not add an inline filter to the line from the tank. Those fuel systems work fine as designed.
Do you have the Operator's Manual for your 450C crawler? It is John Deere publication number OMT71338. It has a description of changing and bleeding the fuel filter and a picture showing the bleeder plug.
You changed the fuel filter. What brand filter and what part number? Several of those square glass filters look alike but are not.
Cracking the line going into the filter from the transfer pump will not bleed the filter of air. If anything, you would crack the line going out of the filter, however there is a bleed er on that housing for that purpose. It is a hex plug at the right-side corner, near the top of the housing.
I would not add an inline filter to the line from the tank. Those fuel systems work fine as designed.
Do you have the Operator's Manual for your 450C crawler? It is John Deere publication number OMT71338. It has a description of changing and bleeding the fuel filter and a picture showing the bleeder plug.
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Blademaster
- 420 crawler
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:04 pm
Re: Fuel delivery
Yessir I changed that filter and changed out with a car quest replacement filter. I damn well should've waited and put a real oem John Deere filter on. My Deere dealer is 80 MI away and keep hours like the bank. So they're closed weekends. I was in a hurry and got that filter from Advanced. I know better but like I said I was in a hurry and had to get 2 drags worth of logs outta the woods. I'm coming off 2 yrs of shoulder surgery. Right, then left, the right was a failure and the left is still healing and I was down to a Rick of wood for the house. I ended up dragging 2 at a time with the trusty old Foreman. So do you think my fuel mix is ok? Ill go to CraigAmerica and get a John Deere filter and start over. I have 45* for next couple days, may change hydraulic filter.as well. Do you not think my fuel mix is working? I have run that mix for 8 years up here in my trucks.and equipment..I buy my fuel from Sinclair only. The random times I've used other its been from Kum n Go where the diesel is 4.99/gal and the water is free. I've even mixed diesel with .92/gas and 1.08 aircraft fuel when its been really cold. My old 3406 and 3408 love that stuff when its -25 for a week at a time. I live over 8500 ft, this is where winter comes early and stays late..By the way I saw a video of this guy on YouTube that took the line off the top of the injection pump and took this little fitting out of the line that had a ball/check valve out of the line because it was clogged. I checked mine and someone has already removed that from mine. As I said before I've put 400± hours on this machine w/o any issue. I do not have a manual for this old girl. Everything I've ever done has just been from the hip. Ill skip that inline filter from the tank.
Re: Fuel delivery
If you got a Carquest 86370 it should be fine, no need to go get a John Deere filter, that is the correct Carquest cross for the John Deere AR50041. If that is the filter you installed, as I have posted before, it sounds like you have not properly bled the filter. The filter should fill to the top, with maybe only a very small sliver of air at the very top, at the worst.
If you have been running the same fuel brand/source for 8 years it is most likely fine. As for your fuel mix, that is a question your fuel supplier needs to answer. I have no way of knowing what mix they are currently selling or when they started blending fuel. They should be able to tell you. We just got a delivery of "winter" off-road fuel the other day and the driver said it was blended for -35F, as delivered while I was adding Howes to the tanks (we treat the bulk tanks with Howes or Power Service right before each delivery as well). They have been delivering blended fuel around here for a few weeks now. We will see temps in the -20 to -30 ranges at times.
That check valve on the injection pump is important and should be there. It lets excess fuel out but prevents any pressure (or air) from getting back into the pump. When a governor ring starts breaking up in the injection pump, that valve often plugs with the bits of governor ring. When that happens back pressure can build to the point where the pump stops working. It sets a while, pressure bleeds of and it will start and run again for a bit. Some break the check assembly out and keep running, right up until it dies all together. A rebuild of the injection pump and new check valve is the recommended fix, before it stops running all together. Your pump may have been rebuilt for this reason, but the check valve wasn't replaced. With this information that the check valve has been "gutted", some of your description in your first post, sounds like the pump may have that issue and the governor ring might be failing. Clean the side of the injection pump where that small plate (timing window) with two screws in it is. Put a clean white rag below the window and carefully remove the plate. If you find what looks like mouse turds in the area behind the plate, the governor ring is failing, and it is time for a shop rebuild of the pump. Use a gasket on the window when reinstalled, not any silicone type sealers.
You can download a free copy of the Operator's Manual (John Deere publication number OMT71338) at the John Deere Construction and Forestry Bookstore. It has the proper instructions for changing the fuel filter. Use this link to get to that bookstore.
https://www.johndeeretechinfo.com/
I can't link direct to the manuals at the bookstore, here is info to help you find/get the Operator's Manual. Type 450C in the top left search box, then click on the 450C that appears as a drop down below that. Next click the search icon to the right of the center search box an it with bring up a list of manuals and videos related to machines with 450C in the model title. Look down the list for the manual number I posted. when you find it click on it and the window will open. On the left you will see a green View Online button and below it a yellow Download button. Click on the Download button and it will download a pdf copy of the manual to your device. You can save a copy to your device, so you have it to review and print sections as you need, without having to return to that site to see it. The prices shown are for those that want hard copies (paper or electronic) made and sent to them by the bookstore staff.
The other items like videos, technical manuals, and Parts catalogs are all items one has to purchase. The different 450 models use different manuals. The Technical (service) Manual TM1102 is the one for your crawler. You can use that publication number to search other places (from Lavoy, eBay, etc.) to get one. The Parts Catalog PC1420 is the one for the crawler dozer. It is free to use online at jdparts.com. Here is a link to it.
PC1420 JD 450C Crawler Parts catalog
If you have been running the same fuel brand/source for 8 years it is most likely fine. As for your fuel mix, that is a question your fuel supplier needs to answer. I have no way of knowing what mix they are currently selling or when they started blending fuel. They should be able to tell you. We just got a delivery of "winter" off-road fuel the other day and the driver said it was blended for -35F, as delivered while I was adding Howes to the tanks (we treat the bulk tanks with Howes or Power Service right before each delivery as well). They have been delivering blended fuel around here for a few weeks now. We will see temps in the -20 to -30 ranges at times.
That check valve on the injection pump is important and should be there. It lets excess fuel out but prevents any pressure (or air) from getting back into the pump. When a governor ring starts breaking up in the injection pump, that valve often plugs with the bits of governor ring. When that happens back pressure can build to the point where the pump stops working. It sets a while, pressure bleeds of and it will start and run again for a bit. Some break the check assembly out and keep running, right up until it dies all together. A rebuild of the injection pump and new check valve is the recommended fix, before it stops running all together. Your pump may have been rebuilt for this reason, but the check valve wasn't replaced. With this information that the check valve has been "gutted", some of your description in your first post, sounds like the pump may have that issue and the governor ring might be failing. Clean the side of the injection pump where that small plate (timing window) with two screws in it is. Put a clean white rag below the window and carefully remove the plate. If you find what looks like mouse turds in the area behind the plate, the governor ring is failing, and it is time for a shop rebuild of the pump. Use a gasket on the window when reinstalled, not any silicone type sealers.
You can download a free copy of the Operator's Manual (John Deere publication number OMT71338) at the John Deere Construction and Forestry Bookstore. It has the proper instructions for changing the fuel filter. Use this link to get to that bookstore.
https://www.johndeeretechinfo.com/
I can't link direct to the manuals at the bookstore, here is info to help you find/get the Operator's Manual. Type 450C in the top left search box, then click on the 450C that appears as a drop down below that. Next click the search icon to the right of the center search box an it with bring up a list of manuals and videos related to machines with 450C in the model title. Look down the list for the manual number I posted. when you find it click on it and the window will open. On the left you will see a green View Online button and below it a yellow Download button. Click on the Download button and it will download a pdf copy of the manual to your device. You can save a copy to your device, so you have it to review and print sections as you need, without having to return to that site to see it. The prices shown are for those that want hard copies (paper or electronic) made and sent to them by the bookstore staff.
The other items like videos, technical manuals, and Parts catalogs are all items one has to purchase. The different 450 models use different manuals. The Technical (service) Manual TM1102 is the one for your crawler. You can use that publication number to search other places (from Lavoy, eBay, etc.) to get one. The Parts Catalog PC1420 is the one for the crawler dozer. It is free to use online at jdparts.com. Here is a link to it.
PC1420 JD 450C Crawler Parts catalog
Re: Fuel delivery
Also check that the fuel tank vent is open. The post I linked is about a 350C tank, but the same things apply to the vent in your 450C tank.
http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... ent#p73726
http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... ent#p73726
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Blademaster
- 420 crawler
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:04 pm
Re: Fuel delivery
You are a pretty handy fella to know young man. I appreciate your time and effort. I've been thinking of rebuilding the pump. It kinda seeps and its gnarly to look at. Is there anyone you recommend to send it out to? My Deere dealer had a really good mechanic that grew up on a farm and actually owned a whole set of tools, not just metric. He got stolen by Cat up in WY. The "techs" they have are good at working on things they can plug their laptops in, not much more.
Re: Fuel delivery
As far as I am concerned an injection pump needs to go to a shop that specializes in such and has the equipment to test run and calibrate the pump after they repair it. I don't know if the JD dealer near you is set up to do that or not. You could ask them if they have a place they recommend. You could ask any equipment dealer, truck shop or contractor near you, they all usually have a pump shop they use.
I am going to guess you are a good distance from me, maybe the Colorado and Wyoming are from things in your posts, so any shop I know of would be a long shipment. You might contact Lavoy either by phone (701-361-1006 during CST business hours) or send him an email (postmaster@jdcrawlers.com). Being as he is in North Dakota he likely has ideas on some places in a more reasonable distance from you for shipping, than Maine would be for you.
If you decide you are going to pull the pump and have it gone through, you should track TM1102 Technical manual down, so you have the info on timing it before removal, removal and installation. I think Lavoy can get manuals through his store; you would have to check with him. You can sometimes find some good used original manuals on eBay for fair prices.
I am going to guess you are a good distance from me, maybe the Colorado and Wyoming are from things in your posts, so any shop I know of would be a long shipment. You might contact Lavoy either by phone (701-361-1006 during CST business hours) or send him an email (postmaster@jdcrawlers.com). Being as he is in North Dakota he likely has ideas on some places in a more reasonable distance from you for shipping, than Maine would be for you.
If you decide you are going to pull the pump and have it gone through, you should track TM1102 Technical manual down, so you have the info on timing it before removal, removal and installation. I think Lavoy can get manuals through his store; you would have to check with him. You can sometimes find some good used original manuals on eBay for fair prices.
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Blademaster
- 420 crawler
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:04 pm
Re: Fuel delivery
Thanks again Jim. I'll see if I can rouse labor in the next day or 2. I'll also check the link in the vent.
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