JD 450C owner intro and frustrating head gasket problem

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Willie B
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Post by Willie B » Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:53 pm

Not a crawler, but I have a Power Wagon, Cylinder 1 & 2 and cylinder 5 & 6 are so close together that a sloppy distributor rotor blows a head gasket. Good distributor parts together with a copper colored sealant recommended by my now deceased engine builder solved a huge problem. I'll figure out what it is, and post.
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

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jtrichard
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Post by jtrichard » Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:01 pm

most likely this is what you are talking about http://www.autozone.com/sealants-glues- ... 20940_0_0/
2010 with 622 dozer with mod. 35 ripper and a 2010 with 622 dozer bought in 1969 and a 2010 loader with drott and mod. 36 ripper

oldmetalmender
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Location: Idaho Panhandle

Post by oldmetalmender » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:17 am

That stuff looks interesting. It looks to be a good product.
I did a good clean in the shop yesterday. I did look on the shelf and pulled down the boxes with the original blown 10 hour head gasket and the one I dinged lightly. I am happy to say all of them are original John Deere head gaskets. So that's a relief. I could not remember but my tendencies are to find OEM parts. I have replaced one of the Pins in my old backhoe with an aftermarket one after not being able to find the original. But all the bushings and other pins and parts are OEM JD stuff. All the fittings I replaced on the 450 were JD parts. I think in the long run everything works better with OEM.
I am curious. If I measure my cylinder sleeves height later and find one above spec, How does a person address this?
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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CatD8RII
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Post by CatD8RII » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:47 am

If liner heights are off, it depends which way they are off. The best thing to do if something is out of spec is to see if the counterbore in the block is the correct depth or if the liner thickness is correct. A height that is too low can be fixed by placing shims under the liner. A height that is to tall would either mean there is junk under the liner or the bore is not deep enough. That would need to be re-cut. When installing liners the bore and step have to be spotless! On a sleeved block a counterbore cut is typically needed after a block has been resurfaced.

I agree about the block heaters, usually an hour or 2 of plug in time has the engine hot to the touch. Another useful thing I have found for them is putting them on a timer, if you can predict when the snow is coming that is :roll:

Willie B
430 crawler
430 crawler
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: Mount Tabor VT

Post by Willie B » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:10 pm

There are numerous types of engine heaters. coolant heaters are manufactured in many wattages. A 300 watt heater will keep your engine warm enough to start if left plugged in. A 1300 watt heater will warm it to start in an hour or two. Along with a coolant heater, I suggest an oil pan heater. This will warm the oil so it lubricates earlier in the cycle. Cold oil doesn't pump well. NEVER run a diesel engine below zero F with thicker than 10W-30! The first minute is destructive! Oil pan heaters are available in magnetic, or glue on silicone pads, the silicone pads disperse BTUs, and are more efficient.

My father and his big brother worked for Bellows Falls Ice Company after WWII. The company no longer sold ice, their product was lumber.They had two Cat D7 crawlers. Father, the careful one, struggled to start the newer one. Uncle tossed a dozen chunks of firewood under the oil pan, and five gallons of diesel. One match, smoke a cigar, it was ready to run. Truth is uncle's Cat likely was healthier.
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

oldmetalmender
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Post by oldmetalmender » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:35 pm

Well interesting stuff on the cylinder liner height. I am sure I will learn just what is out when it comes apart again. I was assuming the block deck might be out some. But measuring will reveal what is up there. I see I need to pick up a new straight edge. In the past on car stuff I had used steel rules. I wonder if those are that accurate now. I will find a good straight edge before I disassemble it. I have all the micrometers. I appreciate the answer on this CatD8RII.
I'll be posting up when it comes apart. I saw your rebuild in your thread. Wow. I showed my wife the picture of the tracks and frame early on. And said, Now there's a rebuild. Her eyes got big. I reassured her I would not go that far... :lol:

And we are hitting single digits for temps here at night. Mid to high 20's during the day. I will find a heater and get it put on before a start in these temps again. I usually had to make three or so attempts with Starting fluid. But never when it was this cold. It would run a bit rough for maybe a minute with some smoke. Then clear up when some heat was getting made. I don't want to beat it up. The good thing is it has stopped snowing. So my neighbor and I are able to deal with the road out easily. Thanks Willie B for all that on the heaters. I need to get something going living in this cold location. We have only been here 1.5 years from a warmer climate. Mays well help out the crawler some.

Well everybody have a happy new year!
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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Paul Buhler
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Location: Killington, VT

Post by Paul Buhler » Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:02 pm

Hi: I have a propane salamander heater that I use on my crawler when it's really cold (sub zero) and I need to use my machine in those conditions. I keep my crawler under a big tarp which acts like a tent and keeps the heat in. I point it forward under my winch aimed at the ground somewhat so that the heat travels forward enough and doesn't cook the closest parts. It works quite fast and is easy to carry around with a 20# tank attached, and I can use it for other things too - like thawing frozen pipes in crawlspaces, and heating one of my work areas - somewhat. Good luck. Paul
Paul Buhler
Killington, VT
420c 5 roll with 62 blade, FOPS, and Gearmatic 8a winch

oldmetalmender
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Post by oldmetalmender » Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:03 pm

I have used a salamander heater on my big military truck one year to warm it up. I don't drive it at all in the winter as the NDT tires just have no traction. That certainly is an option for auxiliary heat.
So I just ordered two "Proheat" 250 watt silicone stick on heaters. One for the 450C and one for the 400 backhoe. I have a JD coolant heater bookmarked but I need to do a little examining on both engines to see if it is a good match. The number of it was RE313366 from Reynolds Farm equipment. Every time I looked for the "correct" heater from the JD parts finder site on google I kept getting this one. Ebay has a few. This one is external and should work providing I have the ports to tap into. I am open to any suggestions also....
So a word on Kats heaters. I base most purchases from reviews and experienced opinions such as those found here. I was looking for heaters this morning and saw a lot of Kats available. Over on one of my truck forums I belong to, there was a guy who had a Kats heater light off and he went outside to start his truck and saw a glow under his oil pan. His Kats heater had shorted and almost burned his truck up. So after reading reviews and seeing the Proheat brand, I went with that one. Lots of long term success and several Kats that gave it up after a short time. That was enough for me. We have yet to see subzero temps here. I know it is coming and Thank you Willie B for the nudge to get this taken care of.

In the mean time, Happy New Year to everyone. Happy crawling. :D
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:20 pm

Hi,

I recall several farmers who would build fires under their oil pans.....

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Willie B
430 crawler
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Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: Mount Tabor VT

Post by Willie B » Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:04 pm

[quote="oldmetalmender"]I have used a salamander heater on my big military truck one year to warm it up. I don't drive it at all in the winter as the NDT tires just have no traction. That certainly is an option for auxiliary heat.
So I just ordered two "Proheat" 250 watt silicone stick on heaters. One for the 450C and one for the 400 backhoe. I have a JD coolant heater bookmarked but I need to do a little examining on both engines to see if it is a good match. The number of it was RE313366 from Reynolds Farm equipment. Every time I looked for the "correct" heater from the JD parts finder site on google I kept getting this one. Ebay has a few. This one is external and should work providing I have the ports to tap into. I am open to any suggestions also....
So a word on Kats heaters. I base most purchases from reviews and experienced opinions such as those found here. I was looking for heaters this morning and saw a lot of Kats available. Over on one of my truck forums I belong to, there was a guy who had a Kats heater light off and he went outside to start his truck and saw a glow under his oil pan. His Kats heater had shorted and almost burned his truck up. So after reading reviews and seeing the Proheat brand, I went with that one. Lots of long term success and several Kats that gave it up after a short time. That was enough for me. We have yet to see subzero temps here. I know it is coming and Thank you Willie B for the nudge to get this taken care of.

In the mean time, Happy New Year to everyone. Happy crawling. :D[/quote]

My 56 Power Wagon either lives indoors, or in the woods. I happened along when the road crew in the next town were complaining bitterly about the new reel of cross chains being too heavy, they rode rough. The selectmen were too happy to let me reimburse them for what was left. I made a set of four. ND, or now I have Power King 900-16 winter tires it goes anywhere except highways with salt. The PW is a great truck, all it lacks is power steering.
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

oldmetalmender
440 crawler
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Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:06 pm
Location: Idaho Panhandle

Post by oldmetalmender » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:09 pm

I'd own a Power Wagon any day. I had a chance at one a couple years ago when asked to do value estimates on a acre of jeeps for someone's estate sale. There was one among all the jeeps They wanted more than I could spare at the moment. I'm a jeep guy all the way. But that PW was the only one I was seriously interested in. It was military and just plain cool. Built way tougher than any jeep. Sadly it was not meant to be.
I did bring home a 64 CJ-5 for a song yesterday. Same year as me. :D
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

oldmetalmender
440 crawler
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Posts: 242
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:06 pm
Location: Idaho Panhandle

Post by oldmetalmender » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:15 pm

Stan Disbrow wrote:Hi,

I recall several farmers who would build fires under their oil pans.....

Stan
I have heard of that being done. Hey what ever works. :lol: I'd probably get a phone call after lighting one and forget. :shock:

I never made it out to look at both engines this afternoon for the external heaters. I had some relatives show up and they brought holiday sweets.
Currently 12 degrees and dropping. Brrrr.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

Willie B
430 crawler
430 crawler
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: Mount Tabor VT

Post by Willie B » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:21 pm

I've had 17 Jeeps. Mostly CJ series My first I still have, a 1947 CJ2A. Drove a 65 CJ5 to school my last year of high school. Now if I look out the window, I see a 99 Wrangler, and a Grand Cherokee the Mrs. loves.
An optimist is usually wrong, and doomed to disappointment. he is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, delighted to be wrong, and is well prepared.

s281jim
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Post by s281jim » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:57 am

Oldmetalmender, don't fear an in-frame overhaul, unless you are 'portly'. The orings do go bad, but the sleeves erode too, so just bite the bullet and replace them.

I have NEVER used a sealant on a head gasket. If everything is straight and true, there is no need. If it isn't straight and true, make it so.

If you need to keep running it, keep an eye on your engine dipstick. Shut it down when you see milkshake. Coolant in the combustion chamber will be hard on the piston, but you plan on replacing next spring anyway.

oldmetalmender
440 crawler
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Post by oldmetalmender » Sat Jan 02, 2016 6:43 pm

Well so far the oil and dipstick looks OK. All new fluids and after seeing the results of extended life coolant, And the lack of rust or corrosion, I put that in both the 450 and the 400 backhoe. The only problem is I see that I put 15-40 WT oil in the backhoe. I forgot to look at the 5 gallon jug in the shed, but I bet the 450 has the same. It's currently 12 degrees and tonight we should see lower single digits. I will not try to start either of these units till I either change the oil or seriously warm everything up beforehand.
I see on email that I have 2 silicone stick on oil pan heaters on the way. I am pleased to see that they are heading my way.
So I took a look at both engines today to see what was available for ports to tap into for the external coolant heater I have bookmarked. I see the 450 has the casting for a port but it is not drilled and tapped. This is in the cast elbow that drops from the thermostat housing down to the head. The backhoe has the same cast elbow and is indeed drilled and tapped with a large plug. So where is the second place to tap into? Is it the coolant drain in the block back towards the rear and middle of the block?
It seems small. I was not able to see the directions on the heater. I wonder if the JD parts finder site has it in the diagram. I will look after I post up. I'd like to get it ordered and on the way. Looks like the crawler will be a little work to get it installed. That's OK I guess.

And Willie B, I have a 69 CJ-5 with just about all the goodies on board. Welder, air, cable lockers, Tilt out windshield, 8274, the works. I bought it when I was a kid and I have had it for 32 years now. And yesterday I brought home a 64 CJ-5 that was almost complete. I have just about everything to make it trail worthy. I was born in 64 also. So that's kind of neat. I also have a 69 X model wagoneer, and I am restoring a 70 basic wagoneer for a Seattle friend. Major rust repair and a full show quality resto. The build thread is over at IFSJA and my user name is Kaiserjeeps. It has been a long haul on it. I am anxious to be done and to move on to my own wagoneer. Well I had better not ramble on about Jeeps on a crawler forum too much. It's great to meet another jeep fan. I will finish with what Jeep really stands for.... Just Engineer Everything Properly... :lol: :lol:
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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