Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

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kilohertz
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Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by kilohertz » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:15 pm

This will be a big step up for us as we venture into a larger machine a 450C apparently early 80s I am awaiting the details from the current owner. It’s out of town and I may make a trip this weekend to go look at it needs a few things apparently possibly sprockets possibly more don’t know anything about 450s.

Are there known things to watch out for with these? I think this is a turbo? Everything is heavier bigger than my 350. Oh and it is a 6 way blade with a ripper

Any guidance greatly appreciated.

Thank you
1952 MC
1965 JD350 outside blade
1968 JD350 Drott 4 in 1
1965ish 710 green tractor
1978 212 garden tractor
2003 F525 circus mower

B Town
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Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by B Town » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:05 pm

I really like the 450C series. Check for pressure building up in the radiator. Look for milk shake in any/all the oils. Look for wear in the front and rear cross members. Look for loose, broken, missing bolts under the machine, clutch housing, transmission. Check the transmission case and the frame rails for cracks, amateur welds/repairs. Operate the H-L-R shuttle in all ranges to make sure the shifts are positive with good power. If your luck is like mine the u/c is much worse than the current owner will describe

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:57 am

Hi,

Yes. Undercarriage. Sellers invariably underestimate how worn it is. Usually say 50% worn when it is closer to 500%. I always ask myself: Do they mean one track flops off all the time, or both tracks flop off half the time? :P

First thing, easy to see, are the sprocket teeth. The ends ought to be flat, but usually they are pointed. So, there is clue number one. As the pins and bushings wear, the chain pitch lengthens and so ride up the teeth.

Next, you can look at the outside of bushings and see if the wear which goes with the sprocket points is even on both sides or worse on one side (even is from forward and reverse, one side usually in the forward direction indicating lots of digging).

After that, it gets more difficult. Can't see the pins or inside of the bushings. Also have to look at the link wear. There is a gauge for this, which helps a lot, but you probably don't have one.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

Jim B
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Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by Jim B » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:57 am

Stretch a track chain tight (put a pin or shaft in the sprocket cup and back up gently to make the chain tight), Measure across 4 pins to the edge of the 5th pin. This will give you an idea of internal wear. My 450E manual says 25.2" for new chains and 25.7" is 100% worn. A 450C will be the same measurements, or very close, as I believe they can use the same tracks. A while back Stan posted a good document from IH/Dresser in the FAQ section about checking undercarriages you might want to review, the basics apply to all crawlers.

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:33 am

Hi,

Oh, yeah! I forgot about that earlier. Here it it. Tons of detail. ;)

http://www.tpaktopc.net/files/undrcarguide.pdf

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

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kilohertz
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Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by kilohertz » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:21 am

Thanks guys,

My apologies, I realized this morning that I posted this in the wrong section....oops.

Anyway, thanks for the tips. Are there any things specific to the 450C that have been common problem areas? This would be my first turbo machine, are there any peculiarities to the turbo engine? Is the shuttle shift different from our 350 reversers?

Thanks, I'll post some pics in the correct section when I get home.

Cheers
1952 MC
1965 JD350 outside blade
1968 JD350 Drott 4 in 1
1965ish 710 green tractor
1978 212 garden tractor
2003 F525 circus mower

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psprague
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Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by psprague » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:28 am

I'd want to see what oil pressure it has. Might give a rough idea of engine life. Mine has no hour meter so its about all I have.
JD 450c forestry, JD 440A cable skidder

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by Stan Disbrow » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:00 am

Hi,

450 HLR is a different beast than the 350 reverser. As far as F to R goes, you want the same easy transition on the 450 as the 350. But, it adds a High to Low, or Low to High shift the 350 does not have. That needs to be pretty quick, but not so much that it tends to lurch you out of the seat. The idea is you can start in High, bog down from the load, and switch to Low while still pushing or dragging your load. When the load eases up, you can go back into high.

The 450 has a disc engine clutch which the reverser 350 does not have, so you need to evaluate that. Behind the HLR is a gearbox pretty similar to the one on the 350. The 450C has wet steering clutches like the 350C, and if you don't already have a wet clutch machine you'll find it really easy to steer. :)

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

B Town
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Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by B Town » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:41 pm

check the radiator for bubbles or pressure as you operate, it is fairly common for people to skip the anti-cavitation additive to the antifreeze creating hotspots at the base of the sleeve, sediment also builds along the cylinder sleeves causing pinholes in the sleeve and therefore pressurizing the radiator system.

check the cross member very closely, loaders are much harder on the front cross member than dozers. the cross members will work loose and people have a tendency to weld them directly to the track carrier.

Look for broken or missing bolts that attach the transmission tube to the frame rails and the front cross member. If they are broken or missing it has likely led a very hard life and has damage done somewhere. One of the more common problems is broken frame rails where they attach to the steering housing. I often see them repaired very poorly with lots of weld.

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kilohertz
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Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by kilohertz » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:20 pm

I looked at the machine today and was happy with the way it looked, however it does need some work.

It looks like it's all original paint, someone has added a ripper at some point, I started it and ran it up to a field to push some dirt, and yes, I like wet clutches, it's like having power steering, very nice. Clutches seemed good, the main engine clutch engaged "late" but was there. It runs straight with either side clutch disengaged. All gears seem fine, shuttle shifter works fine and is pretty cool. All hydraulics work well and pins seem tight on the blade. Oil pressure was 40 at idle cold, 55 or so at 1500 and about 50 once it warmed up, dropped to 35 or so warm at idle. Started right up, sounded good. I didn't crawl underneath but did look and didn't see anything really wrong, but probably couldn't see cracks or missing bolts at that distance. In the recent years, it has had a new engine clutch installed and the head gasket has been changed.

Now to the undercarriage, the pins/bushings are very egg shaped on the outside, measuring 1.82" at the smallest diameter, well over 2" where they are not worn. Sprockets, my estimate are they are toast, one worse than the other, the rollers looked good, not worn, and the chain link measured 3 3/8" and 5 pin spacing was 25 3/8", with him standing on the rear slack portion to tension the front section. There wasn't a pin on the upper roller. Front idlers looked okay, and there seems to be a bit of adjuster space left on the rails. Oh, one side adjuster leaks down over a days' use and needs to be pumped up daily to set the track tension.

So that's the update, pics below. Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Cheers

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Last edited by kilohertz on Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
1952 MC
1965 JD350 outside blade
1968 JD350 Drott 4 in 1
1965ish 710 green tractor
1978 212 garden tractor
2003 F525 circus mower

B Town
1010 crawler
1010 crawler
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:04 pm
Location: Western Iowa

Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by B Town » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:32 pm

Got to love original paint!!

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Stan Disbrow
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Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:16 am

Hi,

That doesn't look bad at all. Yes, the u/c is worn out. That is easy to see, but sounds like the rest of the machine is worth putting new u/c on. It might just need pins and bushings and sprockets. Measuring the rail height would tell, but I don't see where the bosses for the link bushings have been running on the roller flanges (like I have seen on many machines).

The ripper is a nice addition. Looks a bit odd to me. I thought they had straight pull arms which pivot only at the machine end, and two hydraulic cylinders, one on each side. This one has pivots on both ends of the pull arms and one cylinder in the center. Maybe it is a homemade attachment. Looks like it would work OK, though.

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

jwbcontracting
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Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by jwbcontracting » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:42 pm

If you pass on it let me know, I have a 450 loader with hoe coming from cranbrook to Edmonton in the next week or so and this would round out the load if it’s close by. Looks to be a nice straight machine that is need of undercarriage.

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kilohertz
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Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by kilohertz » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:31 pm

Thanks Stan,

Yes the ripper was an add on, originally had a winch which was exchanged for this CAT ripper, the mounts are good on the machine, but the ripper itself has broken a few times, needs some serious beefing up.

Yes agreed, I think it is a worthwhile machine to invest the U/C replacement cost in. A good steam clean and fix the track adjuster and minor cleanup and repairs, new batteries, replace the U/C parts that are needed...and get to work.

Cheers
1952 MC
1965 JD350 outside blade
1968 JD350 Drott 4 in 1
1965ish 710 green tractor
1978 212 garden tractor
2003 F525 circus mower

User avatar
kilohertz
430 crawler
430 crawler
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:37 pm
Location: Sunny BC

Re: Looking at a 450C anything to watch out for?

Post by kilohertz » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:06 am

Well we made a deal and I will get it this weekend. I have already started pricing the new U/C parts and sprockets and chains will be about $3K, if rollers are required $4K. There is also a local equipment shop that still has a track press, they will quote me once I give them link count and pad hole size so I may elect to rotate the pins/bushings as the chain measures close to new, odd. I will also make a proper measurement of pin spacing once it's home, with a pin over the upper roller and measured to the rear of the machine for 5 pins.

Spent some web time and found out it's a turbo model, based on the pictures and the parts catalog. Also discovered it originally was a 6410 manual blade, the 6405 has been added at some point. I have new batteries lined up for it, called JD for the cost of the track adjuster seals and was quoted $500 for both sides, must be the gold plated seals so I am going to pull it apart and see what's up first, then if need be buy from someone who sells them for $20-30 each, which is what they seem to sell for in the USA.

Steam cleaner is ready to go on Saturday, will be fun to get it all cleaned up and see what it really looks like under the dirt.

Now I need to find a trailer that will haul it. :D

That is the evening update.

Cheers
Last edited by kilohertz on Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1952 MC
1965 JD350 outside blade
1968 JD350 Drott 4 in 1
1965ish 710 green tractor
1978 212 garden tractor
2003 F525 circus mower

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