1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

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Mark1331
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1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by Mark1331 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:14 pm

Hi all, I recently had some work done on my 1959 440. It got to where I could not get it into gear, so I had the clutch replaced along with some rollers, and fluid replacement. Bear in mind this was not full clutch replacement, it only goes back and forwards using the gearbox. That is the way it was when I bought it and have not replaced those clutches and such.

Previously when the old clutch was working well, I just started it up, put it in gear, and I was off. Now, it will not do that, it needs to run at least 20 minutes for it to move acceptably, but it has little power and any little thing seems to stop it. Also, when put in reverse it will go awhile, then just stop. I have to put it in first and go forward a bit, and then reverse again and hope it engages.

When I attempt to go left or right, it generally bogs down and barely turns either way. The motor itself runs fine.

Any ideas? I've messaged the guy who worked on it but I've not heard back yet.

I really appreciate any input you have! I'm stumped on this and am hoping that I can get it back in usable shape. Right now it is of no use.

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Lavoy
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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by Lavoy » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:04 am

Nothing that I can think of would change as far as clutch engagement whether it idles for a second or 20 minutes, nothing changes.
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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by Mark1331 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:47 pm

Thanks Lavoy. That's my thinking too. Before the clutch replacement it took off as soon as you started it. I would have never had it replaced if it had not gotten to where it would not go in gear unless I started it in gear.

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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by Lavoy » Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:05 pm

Something is dragging. Do you have the correct amount of freeplay in the pedal? Is the clutch disc in backwards?
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gregjo1948
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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by gregjo1948 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:31 am

Does it have a reverser/shuttle? When turning R or L, it "bods down"... does the engine "bog down" or does the machine just slow down? Is there any strange noises or odors (burning clutch disc)? Without more info, I'd say the clutch needs adjusting.
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Stan Disbrow
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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:02 am

Hi,

Well, your 440 might have issues with five clutches.....

The first is right behind the engine, a single-disc master engine clutch.

The second and third are inside the direction reverser. One clutch pack for forward and another for reverse. By the sound of it, yours is kept in forward and you use the gearbox for reverse.

Then, each final drive has a clutch pack for steering left or right. If the engine bogs down while trying to turn, there are steering clutch issues as well.

If the master engine clutch was rebuilt, it may not be done quite right and slipping. If the forward clutch pack in the reverser is in trouble, they can slip and so the master engine clutch not be the problem at all. In other words, you fixed an issue with the master clutch and now have a different issue.

Were there any 440s made without a reverser? I can't recall ever seeing one without. I have see quite a few with no lever or linkage to the reverser and it just left in forward when the reverse gave out, though.

Stan
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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by dtoots1 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:53 pm

first of all it helps if you post your location in your profile..
secondly see if you can adjust the clutches in the reverser.
and third, from sounds of issue the steering needs adjusted on both sides.
i assume you were able to steer before you replaced ...engine..clutch?

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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by Mark1331 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:22 pm

Hey guys, thank you for all the responses. I did not do the work, so I don't know if the clutch is in backwards, but I'm wondering if it is that or maybe fluid on the new clutch.

The way mine is set up, the reversers do not work, you put it in a transmission gear and that is the direction you go. You use the handles as brakes only.

It does not bog down engine wise, but it just comes to a slow stop when attempting to turn left or right.

The clutch pedal does feel odd, like it isn't returning all the way back after I press it.

I really appreciate the input all, and apologies for the delayed response. Possibly tomorrow I'm going to work with it some more and see if I can figure anything out on it. With luck maybe the clutch pedal is just stuck.

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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by Mark1331 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:54 pm

Went out and tested it just now. Started off a bit better, got a few feet out of the barn and then it would just stop moving when trying to turn. Put it in reverse and went about a foot and stopped, engine sounded like it may be straining a bit but not much. I did not think I was going to get back in the barn.

Finally figured out that if I pulled back on the brake handles one at at time while going in reverse it finally would start moving. I was basically pulling left, right, left right until it started moving in reverse. Finally got it back in the barn and am considering scrapping it.

It does seem like something is binding up but I know little about crawlers and someone else did the work. My only guess is that since the reversers have not worked when I got it (and I assume disconnected somehow inside) that when the clutch was replaced they were reconnected and might be causing this?

Anyway, the mechanic who did this is supposed to come out and check on it, fingers crossed that it isn't now a giant paperweight.

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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by Jim B » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:02 pm

I may have missed it; but is yours a 440IC ,gasoline, or 440ICD ,diesel, not that it really makes a difference in the function of things. Do you have the proper John Deere manuals (Operator's and Service) for your machine?

The levers you pull back on are steering levers, multifunction, not specifically brakes. You should feel about 1-1/2” to 1-3/4" of free play before you feel the throwout bearing touch the steering clutch pressure plate. Pulling the lever further back causes the steering clutch to disengage, this happens before the lever progressively applies the brake until it is fully back and locks a track for a hard turn. Do you have the free play in the levers? Do you feel changes in resistance as you pull the levers back? As dtoots1 posted you may need to adjust your steering clutches so that everything functions at the right time.

Do you have free play in the engine clutch pedal? I don't remember the exact number of hand but think it should be about an inch, someone will likely have the right dimension for a 440.

Does the reverser have oil in it. Its sump is separate from any other oils. The reverser has to have had one clutch making up securely to drive the transmission. It sounds like using your transmission gears; forward gears went forward and reverse was reverse. That tells me it was running with the forward reverser clutch engaged. If it had been the reverse clutch engaged transmission reverse would have gone forward and the forward gears would have all been reverse. If you pull back on the reverser lever into reverse it does it take 25-35 pounds of force to snap the lever in or out? Likewise going back into forward does it take the 25-35 pounds to snap it in? Is the snap better in forward or reverse? If you don’t feel a good snap going into forward, those are adjustable clutches as well; the manual has the procedure to adjust them. You might get lucky and buy a little time if there is adjustment left. If the forward clutch in the reverser has failed completely you may have to repair it now.

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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by Lavoy » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:14 pm

If you don't already have a service manual, you need to get one and do some studying. You are making assumptions that may or may not be accurate. Until you get a better handle on how the machine operates, I don't think we are going to be able to figure out the problem.
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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by Mark1331 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:07 pm

Jim B wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:02 pm
I may have missed it; but is yours a 440IC ,gasoline, or 440ICD ,diesel, not that it really makes a difference in the function of things. Do you have the proper John Deere manuals (Operator's and Service) for your machine?

The levers you pull back on are steering levers, multifunction, not specifically brakes. You should feel about 1-1/2” to 1-3/4" of free play before you feel the throwout bearing touch the steering clutch pressure plate. Pulling the lever further back causes the steering clutch to disengage, this happens before the lever progressively applies the brake until it is fully back and locks a track for a hard turn. Do you have the free play in the levers? Do you feel changes in resistance as you pull the levers back? As dtoots1 posted you may need to adjust your steering clutches so that everything functions at the right time.

Do you have free play in the engine clutch pedal? I don't remember the exact number of hand but think it should be about an inch, someone will likely have the right dimension for a 440.

Does the reverser have oil in it. Its sump is separate from any other oils. The reverser has to have had one clutch making up securely to drive the transmission. It sounds like using your transmission gears; forward gears went forward and reverse was reverse. That tells me it was running with the forward reverser clutch engaged. If it had been the reverse clutch engaged transmission reverse would have gone forward and the forward gears would have all been reverse. If you pull back on the reverser lever into reverse it does it take 25-35 pounds of force to snap the lever in or out? Likewise going back into forward does it take the 25-35 pounds to snap it in? Is the snap better in forward or reverse? If you don’t feel a good snap going into forward, those are adjustable clutches as well; the manual has the procedure to adjust them. You might get lucky and buy a little time if there is adjustment left. If the forward clutch in the reverser has failed completely you may have to repair it now.
Thanks for the information! I think what you advise about the forward reverser clutch being engaged may be how it was when I bought it. There really isn't a lot of force involved to engage the brakes. Let me try to address the items you advise, I'll not pester the board with more questions but I want to respond since you were kind enough to take the time to explain a lot of things. I really don't know a lot about how the whole system operates so I appreciate the information a lot.

1. The clutch feels normal now that I have used it again today. No free play.
2. The force to engage the levers sounds about right.
3. The snap is better with the transmission in reverse than when in a forward gear.
4. When the lever is pulled back I do notice a change in resistance, but that is when it is really almost all the way back.
5. It is IC.

Just to clarify things for anyone looking at this post, since I've owned the crawler pulling the levers back has never made it go in reverse, I knew this when I bought it. The levers have only worked as brakes for me when I use it so I can steer left or right. That setup worked fine for me though as I had no issue shifting the transmission into reverse and backing up that way. I am trying to get an understanding on if the previous owner might have done something specific to make it only engage the forward reverser clutch and if my mechanic when putting the crawler back together after replacing the transmission clutch might have undone that.

Jim, thank you again for the information. The part about the forward reverser clutch especially.

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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by Mark1331 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:16 pm

Lavoy wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:14 pm
If you don't already have a service manual, you need to get one and do some studying. You are making assumptions that may or may not be accurate. Until you get a better handle on how the machine operates, I don't think we are going to be able to figure out the problem.
Lavo
Apologies, I'm just trying to learn and understand things. Since the crawler was not 100% functional when I got it I'm trying to get a grasp on if the previous owner might have done something to make it 'get by' and if that might have been undone by the mechanic who put the transmission clutch in.

I can only describe how it is working and what I have tried that made it work (somewhat) to get it back in my barn ever since the transmission clutch replacement. My hope is that I can better work with the mechanic and get this figured out (or know what I need to expect if I take it to a different mechanic), or figure out that its now time to haul it to the scrapyard.

Feel free to lock or delete this thread, I don't want to waste anyones time if I'm not supplying the needed information.

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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by dtoots1 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:46 pm

Mark, you are really welcome to ask all the questions that you need answered....the problem is knowing the exact questions to pose...

Also you must have missed the info of your ...location....some;one is bound to be nearby that can help. add info to your profile and it automatically shows up in all your posts....that is what this site actually does is help one another.

You really do need the manuals or books to understand terminology and general working of the machine as well as knowing proper oils and lube especially grease because these DO NOT USE regular grease for all the fittings, especially the rollers and idlers require a special grease. I certainly would not want to see you scrap this machine without someone knowing more about it.

Keep us informed of progress and questions

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Re: 1959 John Deere 440 clutch replaced, issues afterwards

Post by Jim B » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:48 am

Mark,
First and foremost; do not write your crawler off as scrap without being certain that is in fact true. Nothing you have described thus far makes it scrap. Terminology can be a problem when describing things. I may be confused on some of your descriptions so; please try to use the commonly used names for controls and other components when describing things. To help with that here are the names of the controls I think are most common:
1. Clutch pedal: Located in the left foot well. Controls the engine clutch and is operated with one’s left foot.
2. Reverser lever: Located on the left side of the console, above the clutch pedal. Controls the wet clutch type reverser which is between the engine clutch and the transmission. It has forward and reverse only and the clutch is used when shifting it during operation of the crawler.
3. Steering Clutch levers: Located ahead of the seat between the operator’s legs. Controls the steering clutch and brake on the same side of the crawler the lever is on.
4. Transmission shift lever: Located on top or the transmission, between the steering clutch levers. Transmission has 5 forward speeds and one reverse.
5. Brake Pedal: Located in the right foot well. Applies both brakes simultaneously, independent of the operation of the steering clutches.

To address your responses to my previous post:
1.“The clutch feels normal now that I have used it again today. No free play.” – It may feel normal to what you are used to but having no free play is not correct; it at least needs an adjustment.
2. “The force to engage the levers sounds about right.” – What levers are you referring to? I was referring to the reverser lever when I posted the 25-pound to 35-pound spec.
3. “The snap is better with the transmission in reverse than when in a forward gear.” If working and adjusted properly the snap of the reverser lever should be the same regardless of if the transmission is in a forward gear or reverse gear, whether the engine is running or not.
4. “When the lever is pulled back I do notice a change in resistance, but that is when it is really almost all the way back.” – If you are referring to a steering clutch lever that sounds about right. You should have the free play as I posted before, you will feel some resistance as the lever moves the throwout bearing to disengage the steering clutch and force to move the lever will increase from there as you engage the brake until it is fully applied and the brake stops lever travel.

I believe I am correct in saying most of us believe in having the manuals, Service and Operator’s. Lavoy is correct about you needing to study the manual, that is not being critical of you, it is like having to study books in school. They are needed to understand and trouble shoot the systems as well as make adjustments. Some adjustments like the steering clutches must be done in a specific order to work correctly. You did not answer if you have any manuals or not. If not please contact Lavoy (postmaster@jdcrawlers.com) about getting a set, if you don't have them. If you have them, study them and things should become clearer and when people reply to your questions the replies will make more sense to you. They might help your mechanic as well if he doesn't have them. If he does have a set for your machine, will he let you borrow them to study?

As dtoots1 posted, add your general location to your profile. You never know there might be a member of the Board near you who might be available to help you out in person. Keep us posted on progress.
Jim

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