JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

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oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:06 pm

I will call the machine shop and ask them. Thanks for that...
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:36 pm

Well I got the motor down to a bare block. I found a broken packing in number 1 cyliner also. Yes the machinist wants the liners before resetting the liner counter bore. He suggested who's parts to buy so I did that. So Lavoy I hope you don't mind me doing that after asking about kits. I measured every single part. Some twice. I documented everything on a sheet. It took a couple hours and I found just about everything was worn past the limits. So new camshaft, tappets, counter balance shafts, oil pump, wrist pins, clutch pressure plate, disc and bearings, oil pressure and temp senders, fan belt, fuel pump, all bushings, rods and mains, the works. I am just under 2 grand not including any machine work. It beats a 4500 dollar short block. My shop looks like a big yellow greasy bomb went off. I need to straighten it up some.
So a question here...
So liner O-ring and packing installation soap. JD wanted 28 bucks for a bottle. Would a heavy mix of dawn dish soap work just as well? Glycerin? oil? What are people using? I'll buy it if I need to, but I guess I thought that was a lot for soap. Maybe not if it does the job correctly.

The manual calls for 20 minutes or so at 3/4 load before retorquing the head bolts. What is a good way to put some load on it? Tow a jeep around that is in gear? Push snow that most likely will be here when I get this crawler back together? It was 5 degrees here this morning. I am hoping it warms up some.
Is a diesel motor break in similar to breaking in a fresh gas 350? Rev it to mid range (for a diesel) for cam break in? The manual does not go into that, but I will look again.
Thanks for the help.
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DrLoch
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by DrLoch » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:26 am

While not trying to start any oil related debates in your excellent thread, consider adding ZDDP to your engine oil for break-in if you are going to use a regular diesel oil. Newer oils, even diesel oils, have reduced the additives that reduce the wear of flat tappet/lifters. One of the last flat tappet engines I rebuild a number of years ago whipped out 2 camshafts before I learned this information.

Just google ZDDP additive. Or, you can get some Joe Gibbs diesel breakin oil, https://www.summitracing.com/parts/jgr- ... H1EALw_wcB.

Myself I add the the ZDDP additive to my JD and Ferguson with 23C oil.

Just a thought.
Last edited by DrLoch on Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Lavoy » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:46 am

Deere has a break in oil as well, not positive on price.
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oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:42 am

Good call on the ZDDP. I will probably run high zinc and Phos oil all the time. I had not gotten that far to think about oil yet. I run Valvoline VR-1 in a couple late 60's jeeps I have here. It is high ZDDP and needed for cam and wrist pin life. So after several hours on the road today I learned my 4219 block is cracked in 4 places. It is junk. The number 4 liner seat and all three webs between cylinders are cracked. I will post pictures tomorrow after I get some rest. The machinist was great and showed me a 4239 block that would also work. It had a way thicker casting. I would need new rods with a bigger wrist pin bore and a different piston liner kit. I spent hours tonight making sure all part numbers for everything else was the same between the 4219 and 4239. They are. If I am missing something please let me know there.
I am not sure what I will do yet. That will show itself later. I will get some pictures up tomorrow.
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by gregjo1948 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:57 am

I would guess that you're going to need track pins and bushings. Looks like the tracks are adjusted most the way out. I always replace sprockets too, when doing pins and bushings.
JD 350B diesel 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 high crop w/ flail boom mower, International 404 , International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller, Allis Chalmers D17

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by DrLoch » Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:58 am

The scrapped block while unfortunate explains why it was having issues. Better to find out now.... to quote something I've seen posted elsewhere.

Never fix the what, Fix the why first.

Thanks for the updates and pictures
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:26 pm

I am going to remember that quote. Hope you don't mind me using it here and there. :D So my head is spinning... Lots of time spent looking for a fix here. Researching wether the 4239 block is a better stronger replacement and my parts will fit. I found a 4219 block at Farmland tractors in oregon for 750. Shipping making it about 950. There is a 4239 block casting number R124850 that is a little over an hour from me in Spokane for 975. I plan on taking my measurements from my block and some Mic's and go have a look. So far it looks to be the same except for the pistons and liner and a bigger wrist pin. As long as the liner OD bore is the same then the block could be built out as a 4219 with a way better cast block. The machinist says the 20 cubic inch gain is in the Liner ID and the 4219 liners should fit. The stroke of both motors is the same at 4.33
I will report my findings for anyone doing a search later on.

Here is the old bad block. I figure about 243 dollars a crack. :mrgreen:

Image

Another one.
Image

And yet another one in the liner counter bore.

Image

Where number 4 sleeve was .006 low. No material under the shoulder. Totally weak and no wonder. The 4239 blocks are twice that.

Image

I will have more soon.
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1975 JD 450C crawler

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by JWB Contracting » Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:07 pm

I would recommend going the 4239 route. They have more torque at low RPM’s. We transplanted a natural 4239 into our yard 450C and works real nice. They seem to start easier as well. We just salvaged 2 of them from 450’s we got in and installed 4219’s. Both machines had main engine clutch issues so to come out on the repairs we kept the 4239’s. One may go in my 440B powershift skidder, but may opt for a 4276 to really jazz it up. Has same rear ends and transmission as a 540B which came factory with the 4276 so shouldn’t be able to hurt anything.
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oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:06 pm

I am looking forward to Monday morning when I can go measure and examine the 4239 block. I thought I might take the front and rear plates too.
Longest weekend ever.... :mrgreen:
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:08 am

Well after hours and hours of research and comparison on the 4239 engine build and will it replace the 4219 engine, I have found it is only some basic parts that need to be changed. Pistons, liners, and rods if a person has the 1.375 piston pins. The turbocharged 4239 piston has a 1.625 pin. I planned to go look at a 4239 used block this morning. But I found a :arrow: brand new NOS John Deere 4239 block casting number R124850 same as the used block for only a hundred bucks more. The shipping was less than the used block hot tanking, magnaflux check and any machine work to correct any problems. A no brainer at this point. So all the 4219 parts have already been exchanged for the 4239 parts. Jensales is a great place to work with I found.
It will be a week plus before everything gets here. I will post the build when things get interesting and what I find for converting a crawler from a 4219 to a 4239 for anyone who might need to do this later on. I am still under the costs of a shortblock. :arrow: :mrgreen:
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:55 pm

I picked up the block today. Pretty quick coming from Ohio to Idaho I thought. It is covered inside and out with cosmoline. Lots of it. I have been cleaning with naptha. It cuts it pretty well. I should be done removing all the cosmoline by 2020. :lol:

I got the 4219 kit that I am returning. Still waiting on the 4239 kit. I got part of the clutch and most of the engine parts not included in a kit. Still a ways to go yet before everything is here. I am having a bear of a time removing the tach drive gear in the back of the camshaft. The new camshaft has a 5/16x18 threaded hole there. So I see it is right hand threads and it just won't unscrew. Dang gear is 211 bucks. It's 3/4 of an inch long. Any suggestions?
Anyway, here it is partially cleaned.

Image

Image

This is why I wanted this block.

Image

John Deere must have figured out that this just was not enough material. No wonder they crack there.

Image

More soon...
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:15 pm

Time for some more humor. Yes, It does bother me just a tad that my parts are coming from china. Nope don't like that one bit. But when looking at the balancer shafts, this was on the packaging. So the place that made it also has a gem and jewelry division?
Apparently there are no R's to be found anywhere except the engineering dept. I had to bring it in the house to show the wife. :mrgreen:

Image
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by gregjo1948 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:24 am

Lavoy wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:46 am
Deere has a break in oil as well, not positive on price.
Lavoy
How many hours should break-in oil be run before changing oil and filter? Is Napa 15/40 good oil to run id JD 350B?
JD 350B diesel 6way blade, Case 580B Loader/backhoe, Farmall 504 high crop w/ flail boom mower, International 404 , International 284 diesel w/belly mower, 1972 Ford F600 dump truck, Galion 3-5 roller, Allis Chalmers D17

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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Lavoy » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:31 pm

Been a while, but seemed to me at least 50 hours if not more.
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