JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

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B Town
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by B Town » Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:37 pm

I have what I believe is a original gauge. I have had it for ~10yrs. It is stamped “EXERCISE CLUTCH FINGERS “ and is stamped “JD227A” directly underneath the words. Best regards, Bruce

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:11 pm

Those are getting hard to come by. I would wash it, wax it and give it it's own private hook to hang on. :mrgreen: I am glad I have one on the way from lavoy. Otherwise I would be trying very hard to get you to send it to me and trust that I would return it after copying it. And I would return it as I am good with stuff like that. But I thankfully found a solution. Thank you Lavoy.

So I hope to get back on this engine build by Tuesday. I am in the middle of a headlight conversion with relays on my dodge truck. I just could not see at night.
I also found that I have the wrong clutch disc for the 450C. The number is correct, the picture is correct, but the disc is the wrong one and hits the pressure plate. Yes I have the correct side forward. There is my first phone call tomorrow morning. I also had to order a couple more parts. I am uncovering damage under all that grease. My solvent tank is getting a work out.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:51 pm

I got my clutch finger height gauge today. Thank you Lavoy. It is very nicely made.

I have a question for the more experienced.
4239 engine. Or 4219 for that matter. The rear main seal... It has the replaceable wear sleeve that is a light press fit on the crank. The main body of the seal presses in the rear engine plate with a driver. The wear sleeve is not removable from the seal. What is the best way to install this?
It looks like installing the seal in the adapter plate with a driver, then install the plate on the engine block carefully tapping the wear sleeve on to the crankshaft till the engine plate is landed and tight against the block. Is there a better way?

The seal, and the inside of the seal with the lip that captures the wear sleeve making it non removable.

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The outside of the seal with the inner wear sleeve flange to drive it in. This seems sort of self explanatory, but I thought I would ask.

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My wifes brother arrives Monday. I will probably not get much done this next week. So I am working late and have made progress.

I have super cleaned every part. I should have been a dentist. :mrgreen:

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My front pulley has had 3 different seals on it. There is not much left of the seal surface. This part is 295.63 new JD.
Ebay has them used but I found a speedi sleeve that worked great. It is a National 99225. The part number is the same for both companies that make this repair part.

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It runs long and needs to be trimmed on a lathe. I did not have a way to peel the drive flange like you normally would and seat it further. I did not want to damage it.
It trimmed up fine.

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I got some old construction yellow on today. This will make the final paint job much easier and I won't have unpainted spots later.
It has been in the teens here. The heat is on and I will have to let this sit for a couple days.

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I am converting to a GM internally regulated alternator. I hope the slightly bigger case clears the engine side shield. I may have to run a slightly shorter belt to pull it in some. I found a conversion pulley that will fit the wide JD belt perfectly at alternator starter parts wholesale. The pulley V-groove needs to be 16-19 mm wide. I found one. About 11 bucks there.
I also discovered PB blaster wetted down on the new block with cosmoline all over it is loosening the cosmoline very effectively. An overnight soak and then naptha, then brake cleaner. Finally something that cuts that stuff. The last of the plastigauge showed up. Now I can check
clearances and get to assembling. I think I will also redo the seat vinyl and arm rests before it goes back outside. Replacements seem to be 275ish to 350. I have the marine vinyl and a German sewing machine that will punch through plywood. No kidding... It is good to finally give this machine some TLC.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

Jim B
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Jim B » Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:31 am

Good morning,

This link should take you to a downloadable Technical manual for a 450B which used the 4219 engine. When the page opens scroll down and on the right side of the page you will see the format options it can be downloaded in. The crankshaft section has information on the installation procedure of those seals (rear and front). https://archive.org/details/John_Deere_ ... ual_TM1033

HTH,

Jim

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jsal
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by jsal » Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:26 am

mineral sprits cleans cosmoline off nicely and leaves no residue blow with compressed air

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:58 am

The link to the manual is great. Thank you. But it is the same info I have in my TM-1102 crawler manual. It shows installation of a rear main that comes in two pieces. The inner wear sleeve and the outer seal. The replacement I have here is a integral unit that I cannot separate. At least it sure looks that way. The inner wear sleeve has such a large flange on it, I can't see separating them and successfully getting them back together once on the engine. Maybe it is supposed to be separated. It looked to big to me to do so. I'll look again. The picture above shows the inside of the seal and the flange I am referring to.

I'll try paint thinner on the block. I don't want to keep putting an oil type product on the outside when I intend to paint later. I am almost done getting that stuff off. Thanks for that.

I ran the part number of the 12SI GM alternator I pulled off the shelf. It was a 150 AMP unit I had for my Jeep CJ. Ridiculous overkill for a crawler that originally had a 22 AMP alternator and has no significant draw accessories. I finally found an 80 AMP CS130 one wire on summit's site that was under a hundred bucks. The CS130 has a smaller case like the Motorola and should fit fine compared to a GM 10SI or a 12SI which share the same outer dimensions at 6 inches. It also has better cooling with more holes to let dirt in. :)
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

Jim B
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Jim B » Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:18 pm

See if this description looks better. It is from a 450E manual. The parts catalogs cross check to the same seal used in both now RE44574. That seal appears to use a different installation driver set.

Image

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:18 pm

That is the right installer I see. I did not know about those. Thanks Jim for finding and posting that. Yikes, I am finding prices from 250 to 700 for them and I am not sure they fit. I have a call to a heavy equipment mechanic friend to see if he has one. I wonder if I could fabricate one and measure the depth of what I have here for setting it correctly. Small bump in the road... Hopefully the last one. Again, thanks Jim for taking the time to post that. Where are the parts catalogs you are viewing on what you posted? I have the technical and parts manuals here. And I have been using the John Deere parts catalog a lot. Is what you posted online somewhere?

Thank you.
al

EDIT:: I found this regarding installation of the rear seal and wear sleeve.

http://www.reliancepowerparts.com/catal ... .30-16.pdf
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

Jim B
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Jim B » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:51 pm

The seal installation info is from my 450E repair Technical manual, I wish it had been free on line. I hadn't looked at my "E" as I thought the B series would be what you were looking for. It appears they are using the newer type seal in all of them now as that is in both the 450 and the 450E on line parts catalogs. I use the JD on line parts catalogs. https://jdparts.deere.com/servlet/com.d ... anguage=19

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:24 am

300 bucks is a lot for a special installer (JT30040b) to use for ten minutes and put in a drawer. There is another one that was 699.00 (KCD10002). I collected most of the metal to make one. It will take me a bit and I will have to set the seal depth by measurement, but I suppose it can be done. If I ever do this work on my 69 JD400 backhoe, well I would have the installer. Maybe I will get some lathe time in while family is here. I am having new oil feed lines made for the turbo on the way to the airport. House of hose Spokane Wa. Great shop there. I appreciate all the help and comments that have been offered up. Happy Thanksgiving ahead of time. :)
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:47 pm

Well I am trying to keep momentum going on this crawler. We had family for a week and there seems to be plenty to do that keeps me from getting much done. I had several calls out looking for the seal and wear sleeve installer. Even the closest JD dealer. No go so I ended up making one.
I had trouble finding a section of pipe that was perfectly round. I had to cut a few pieces to finally end up with one that was not to bad.
Using measurements and some really good pictures from a tractor thread I found, I made this. I also stopped in Spokane on the way from picking up the brother in law and bought grade 8 all thread and nuts. 9/16 X 18. I will use the extra for my cylinder liner puller I made earlier, so I killed two birds there.

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I used a boring bar and then a hone to make a perfect fit on the center post and tube. With a light smear of grease, there is maybe .002-.003 thousandths backlash. It is a very nice fit and will keep the seal aligned going in.
I measured the seal and step to the wear sleeve and it needed to be a .065 step to not bind the wear sleeve and seal rubber.
the wear sleeve is lifting the drive ring here just a little bit. The pipe wall was also a shade to thin. I rolled two pieces of 18GA sheet metal and plug welded it to the pipe on the inside and outside. It fits well now and pushes on both parts where it needs to and just barely sleeves inside the rear engine plate. I got lucky there.

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After a spray of cerakote glacier black air cure. It is a ceramic coating for guns but I use if for car parts. Amazing stuff and good for 1800 F. I will be coating the exhaust parts with it. It is ten times better than paint. Dozens and dozens of colors too.

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Assembled and ready to use for all of ten minutes. I guess I saved 300 bucks there. I don't mind lathe time at all, so win win.

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The 80 amp alternator showed up. I had trouble finding one under 100 or 140-150 amps. 80 amps is overkill. But what the heck. It is a CS 130 case and is very close in size to the motorola. I got it from Summit and it showed up with a Vee pulley and not a serpentine pulley as advertised.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SDM-PCE360-1017

The extra wide pulley came from asp warehouse.

https://www.aspwholesale.com/pulley-p6483.html

A small issue. The alternator shaft could be a shade longer and offer more threads for the retaining nut. I turned the ID in just this much for a better retention. The nut shoulder stood out some and I fixed that. I also used high temp thread locker to keep everything together later.
Remove this much. Check fit with the nut and stop just before the hex reaches the pulley.

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Belt fit is good and looks like it will work fine. The belt does not touch the center hub in the bottom of the pulley. Don't tell anyone I have chrome on my crawler. I will try to hide it. :mrgreen:

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Size comparison for the delco CS130 and the motorola side by side with metal square tubing on top. I don't think there will be any interference with the side shield. Hope not anyway.

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The CS130 is supposed to be one wire capable. I did find a factory Delco CS130 wiring configuration option guide. I will post it when the alternator goes in and I figure out what works best for hooking it up.
I am used to posting a lot of information like I have done for auto restoration threads. I hope I am not posting to much information given it is just a crawler and all I want in the end is a good running fresh engine that does not consume coolant like a drunk before prohibition. I need help here and there. But want to also offer up information in case someone else out there wants to do something similar. Glad to be on this site.
Anyway... A couple steps closer.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

gaspumpsam
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by gaspumpsam » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:24 am

Super good work, info and pic’s. :D :D
If I lived closer to you, I think I would be “hanging around your house” as I am rebuilding my 440 ic :D :D
Can hardly wait to see pics of your 450 completed!!

oldmetalmender
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:08 pm

Anybody who wants to talk jeeps or crawlers is welcome here anytime. :D I too am looking forward to the end result. I have had it for 5 years. The head gasket was intact for about 20 minutes after my first fix which was actually the second fix after discovering in some notes the previous owner had done it before I bought it. I did not catch the issue and the seller somehow forgot to mention it. It is getting fixed correctly now. So it will be nice to have a turn key crawler. Very soon now.
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

oldmetalmender
440 crawler
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Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:06 pm
Location: Idaho Panhandle

Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by oldmetalmender » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:53 pm

I am having a little difficulty locating an unstamped model and serial number data plate for this new 4239 engine. I have found numerous data plates for older tractors etc, but nothing for these 300 series engines. I should put something on the block in case I sell it someday or I become forgetful.
Any suggestions out there? I could probably make something but would appreciate an OEM data plate. I will keep looking....
1969 JD 400 backhoe
1975 JD 450C crawler

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Lavoy
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Re: JD450C third head gasket This is getting old

Post by Lavoy » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:18 pm

I would stamp 4239 in the block where the serial number plate goes.
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