Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

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kilohertz
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Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by kilohertz » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:01 am

Hi guys,

My 450C has been pressed into service for snow removal on our property this year as it's a bit too much for the skid steer...but my 1981 450C doesn't like to start when it's -20C outside. I have looked around the engine and don't see any signs of a coolant heater. My 350 has an inline heater someone installed, but it's not at home right now so I can't refer to it.

So did the 450C have a factory block heater, or any sort of cold wx starting aid. I don't even see an ether port like on my 350. I really don't like to use ether anyway.

Look forward to some guidance please and thanks.

Cheers
1952 MC
1965 JD350 outside blade
1968 JD350 Drott 4 in 1
1981 JD450C with 6 way blade and ripper
1965ish 710 green tractor
1978 212 garden tractor
2003 F525 circus mower

Jim B
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Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by Jim B » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:41 am

The on line parts catalog shows a tank heater for the 450C. https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sid ... gId/132206 I don't know where the JD connection points on the engine were for their arrangement. That is a similar arrangement to the one I put on my 2030 wheel tractor (4219D engine). I kept the hoses short and mounted it tighter to the block than they showed for the 2030 to minimize risk of damage. So far it is working good even though some will say a longer coolant path in the block will work better. I normally run it 2-3 hours even at the temp range you mention (parked inside an unheated barn), of course the longer it runs the easier it starts. Image

The 4276D and some other engines have a O-ring boss threaded plug with a 1-5/8 hex head, that can be removed and a thread in block heaters installed in place of. I doubt yours has the plug, but if your engine happens to have that plug on one side or the other of the block you could use one of those. That is what I put in my 450E (left side). Image

Kats also shows a heater to go in a 3/4NPT port located in the rear face of the block for these series engines (4219, 4239, 4039,etc.). I have no info on that one and it would need about 6 inches behind the engine to install one I expect; if that port is there on the engine.

HTH

Jim

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kilohertz
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Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by kilohertz » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:36 pm

Thanks Jim,

Appreciate the pictures. I had a look at mine today and your first picture setup would work, I have the same ports, but I also found the thermostat housing has a 1/2" pipe thread plug which I could remove and use that port. There is also about a 3/4" pipe thread plug at the back of the head, behind the exhaust manifold, it's right up against the bulkhead but there would be enough room to get a right angle port in there.

I found that exact pump on the web as well, pretty cheap for a 1000W heater.

What ports do you think would give the most effective circulation?

Thanks all.

Cheers
1952 MC
1965 JD350 outside blade
1968 JD350 Drott 4 in 1
1981 JD450C with 6 way blade and ripper
1965ish 710 green tractor
1978 212 garden tractor
2003 F525 circus mower

Jim B
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Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by Jim B » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:03 pm

I would go to the back of the head before returning hot coolant next to the thermostat on the off chance it might open some and let hot coolant go to the radiator. That said the one on my 2030 is working on as it is plumbed, and exposure to damage is minimal. I keep it plugged in to a 15 amp wireless controlled outlet. I can turn it on, from in the house, mornings when I need it, so it is ready after I have breakfast, coffee, and read the paper; without having to go out to it to plug it in. I have run them on heavy duty timers as well for units needed about the same time every day.

gaspumpsam
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Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by gaspumpsam » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:29 pm

The screw in electric heaters are best, if you have proper port to install them. There is magnetic base electric heaters that work ok, as long as you have relatively smooth metal for the magnet to grab onto, but you can add as many as will fit on side of block or oil pan, then you can remove them after engine running, then put them back after you are finished with machine for the day.

The tank heaters work well, keeping in mind the lower or inlet for the heater should come from the lowest port or hose of the cooling system( lower rad hose or somewhere close to that) and the top or heated port of the tank goes in the lowest port of the engine block( remembering heat rises, ) I will probably get a lot of “suggestions” that I am wrong on that, but proof is in the pudding . Electric intake manifold heaters work, but require fairly heavy wiring and relays, and battery to work properly.

Having said that, starting in cold weather requires good clean proper grade of oil’s( or good synthetic’s), good battery, starter, cables, clean air cleaner etc and good fuel, with no dragging paresitic loads, like hyd blade valve or winch not centered properly,
Disengage clutch, so you aren’t turning trans in thick oil.
Just my thoughts after a few years in cold climate, and a few of the problems I have found, and remedied .

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kilohertz
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Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by kilohertz » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:25 am

Thanks Jim and Sam,

Both helpful suggestions. I have a wifi outlet I was wondering what to do with, now I know, cool.

And Sam, I haven't done anything to this machine since I bought it, so I have no idea what oil is in it etc. I checked the air cleaner this morning but otherwise, I need to do a full service on it this spring, when I get some time, fluids filters etc. I pulled the hood today so I could get a couple of heaters and a quilt over the engine for the night, and found a hose broken, coming off the suction side of the turbo intake rubber pipe, not sure where it goes so I will consult the parts diagram.

It's been -21 all day, supposed to start warming tomorrow and back to near 0 for the weekend...be nice to be able to work on the machines in above freezing temps. :D

Cheers

PS looks like that little broken hose is the air cleaner restriction indicator, which I will need to replace, or at least plug the hose.
Last edited by kilohertz on Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
1952 MC
1965 JD350 outside blade
1968 JD350 Drott 4 in 1
1981 JD450C with 6 way blade and ripper
1965ish 710 green tractor
1978 212 garden tractor
2003 F525 circus mower

gaspumpsam
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Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:56 am
Location: Quesnel, BC, Canada

Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by gaspumpsam » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:36 am

Where is your “sunny BC”? We are in Quesnel.

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kilohertz
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Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by kilohertz » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:40 am

Just left of Vernon, in Salmon Valley. Not sunny now, just cold, imagine you are about -28 or so??
1952 MC
1965 JD350 outside blade
1968 JD350 Drott 4 in 1
1981 JD450C with 6 way blade and ripper
1965ish 710 green tractor
1978 212 garden tractor
2003 F525 circus mower

gaspumpsam
440 crawler
440 crawler
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:56 am
Location: Quesnel, BC, Canada

Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by gaspumpsam » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:22 am

- 40 C last 2 mornings. Water not froze, coffee maker works, life is good! Supposed to start warming up today.

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kilohertz
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Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by kilohertz » Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:47 pm

I decided to order the KATS 13080 it's an 850 watt heater like pictured above. The 1000W was out of stock. By the time it gets here the cold snap will be over and I can install it in relative comfort.

Thanks for all the ideas.

Cheers

PS it still won't start, even with 250 W air drier heaters under a quilt overnight. Might have to use my 1500W radiant heater.
1952 MC
1965 JD350 outside blade
1968 JD350 Drott 4 in 1
1981 JD450C with 6 way blade and ripper
1965ish 710 green tractor
1978 212 garden tractor
2003 F525 circus mower

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Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by Lavoy » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:17 pm

For best results, port from lowest possible point to highest. There should be a block drain somewhere on the side of the block. Put a hose barb there, and what I have done in the past on 350's is put a TEE where the temp sender goes in the back of the head. Doing it this way will flow heated water to the greatest area, but obviously shorter loop will still work.
Silicone pad heaters are another option if you clean the belly pan out and put one on the oil pan. From my experience, go bigger than they recommend, the hotter the oil, the more heat will radiate up into the engine.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
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kilohertz
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Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by kilohertz » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:34 pm

Lavoy wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:17 pm
For best results, port from lowest possible point to highest. There should be a block drain somewhere on the side of the block. Put a hose barb there, and what I have done in the past on 350's is put a TEE where the temp sender goes in the back of the head. Doing it this way will flow heated water to the greatest area, but obviously shorter loop will still work.
Silicone pad heaters are another option if you clean the belly pan out and put one on the oil pan. From my experience, go bigger than they recommend, the hotter the oil, the more heat will radiate up into the engine.
Lavoy
Okay good advice, thanks! I am going to have another look this morning and get the required fittings together. The heater should be here next week. I'm guessing it has a little pump built in as well, imagine it doesn't matter which way it pumps. I'll look for the temp sender as well.

I pulled the end cap off the starter and the brushes are new and the commutator looks good and clean so it must have been rebuilt or new not many hours ago. I think my biggest problem is parasitic drag, most likely wrong oil. The batteries are large semi truck batteries, both good condition and the cables are all good, no warm spots after 30 seconds of cranking, starter and solenoid are pretty cool as well. As mentioned, I haven't done a thing to this since I bought it, will be doing full maintenance this spring.

Cheers
1952 MC
1965 JD350 outside blade
1968 JD350 Drott 4 in 1
1981 JD450C with 6 way blade and ripper
1965ish 710 green tractor
1978 212 garden tractor
2003 F525 circus mower

JWB Contracting
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Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by JWB Contracting » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:26 pm

Drag on a 450 is not much of an issue if your clutch is working properly and stepping it down all the way. The clutch pedal cuts off oil to the transmission for the first portion of travel, then activates the dry clutch behind the engine. So only spinning the engine and hydraulic pump.

Our 450C loader hoe does not start well in the summer and at 15 degrees Celsius requires either. At 30 below and tank heater it starts instantly. Have had the machine for 25 years for around the yard. In comparison a 350 plugged in at -30 may be hard to start. We run the tank heater from the back middle of the block to the water jacket on the front. Some of the water jacket / thermostat housings are not drillled to accept a pipe fitting. There is a flat spot so you can drill and tap if needed. The tank heater is directional so read the instructions.


Don’t be afraid of using either if needed, if used sparingly will not cause any damage. We use Kleenflow as it has lubricate in it.
Jason Benesch

John Deere 420, 430, 440 & 350C With 3 Point Hitch
John Deere 400G With Winch
John Deere 2010 Crawler Dozer
John Deere 420, 430, 435 & 440 Wheel Tractors

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kilohertz
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Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by kilohertz » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:46 pm

JWB Contracting wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:26 pm
Drag on a 450 is not much of an issue if your clutch is working properly and stepping it down all the way. The clutch pedal cuts off oil to the transmission for the first portion of travel, then activates the dry clutch behind the engine. So only spinning the engine and hydraulic pump.

Our 450C loader hoe does not start well in the summer and at 15 degrees Celsius requires either. At 30 below and tank heater it starts instantly. Have had the machine for 25 years for around the yard. In comparison a 350 plugged in at -30 may be hard to start. We run the tank heater from the back middle of the block to the water jacket on the front. Some of the water jacket / thermostat housings are not drillled to accept a pipe fitting. There is a flat spot so you can drill and tap if needed. The tank heater is directional so read the instructions.
Thanks Jason,

I actually got it started today and did the required plowing. It was up to -12 and I had left the battery charger on all day...I removed the 3/8 pipe plug on the intake port, right above the manifold and shot some ether in there as I was cranking, she pretty much fired right up after 5 seconds of cranking.

My T-stat housing is drilled and tapped and there is a pipe plug in there, is that where you mean to put one end of the line? The other end I assume goes to the block drain as pictured above. Which direction do you pump the coolant?

Thanks.

Heater will be here next Thursday or so.

Cheers
1952 MC
1965 JD350 outside blade
1968 JD350 Drott 4 in 1
1981 JD450C with 6 way blade and ripper
1965ish 710 green tractor
1978 212 garden tractor
2003 F525 circus mower

B Town
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Re: Winter starting a 450C. Block heater? Tank heater? My options??

Post by B Town » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:11 pm

Good evening kilohertz

I didn’t think the tank style heaters had pumps in them. The ones I’m familiar with rely on thermosiphon action and have a heating element inside the tank. The early tanks were steel and would rust out /leak. I think the manufactures have made significant improvements.
In a previous comment, it was said to get the in as low as possible and the out as high as possible. Also, to get the ports as fair apart as possible.

Best regards, Bruce

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