Key ignition question

General help and support for your Lindeman through 2010 John Deere crawler
bookman51
430 crawler
430 crawler
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 10:20 am
Location: Kearney, Nebraska

Key ignition question

Post by bookman51 » Fri May 15, 2020 10:33 am

I ended up with a key ignition for my 1958 420 crawler. I see where it can be installed but I do not know where the wiring from it is connected. Anybody got any good pictures or descriptions where to connect the key ignition?

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: Key ignition question

Post by Jim B » Fri May 15, 2020 5:17 pm

I was going to dig my manual out find, scan, and post the wiring schematic for you, but I believe you already have the schematic you need to wire the key switch. In your post "Switch Wiring" you say you have the manual and are looking at the picture of the backside of the switch (ignition with lights switch) on page 80-10-3. I checked my manual and at the top of that page in my manual has the wiring schematic (Figure 80-10-8 Schematic View of Ignition and Light wiring Harness) which shows the wiring with the optional key switch. The harness description, with wire colors starts on page 80-10-2 and continues onto 80-10-3, the section before Removal ignition- light switch you were looking at. I would expect the same info is in your manual. That key switch is wired in series with and ahead of the combination switch. When properly wired both switches will need to be on for the crawler to run. With the key off and removed, it prevents power from reaching the combination switch battery terminal.

You may need to unhook one end or the other of the tach cable, or wires that maybe secured, to get slack to tip the panel away.

HTH
Jim

bookman51
430 crawler
430 crawler
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 10:20 am
Location: Kearney, Nebraska

Re: Key ignition question

Post by bookman51 » Fri May 15, 2020 9:57 pm

Jim, Thanks. I see where the base of the fuse holder goes to the key switch. The does the other side of the key switch wire then go to the middle terminal of the combination switch? I need to figure out the short before I do anything with the key switch. I will try to get my fat fingers in there and undo the tach so I can get a better look at the backside of the combination switch. Will I risk burning out the bulbs if I test them by wiring directly from the battery to the front lights to test to see if they work? I suspect they are okay and I probaby have a problem with the wiring along the way. I inspected it today and did not see anything but I did not get the dash loose enough to get the combination switch out to look at the back side and trace the wires. Thanks much.

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: Key ignition question

Post by Jim B » Sat May 16, 2020 5:23 am

By the schematic the wire from the fuse hooks to the Battery terminal of the key switch. The wire from the second terminal of the key switch (# 11) connects to the Battery terminal of the combination switch. By the schematic drawing one might call it the middle terminal of the combination switch. I don't have one to look at, so can't confirm its actual location. I suggest looking for a B or BAT next to that terminal on your combination switch.

The light bulbs will be fine with direct power from the battery as long as they are the proper voltage for the battery used. The bigger risk is melting or burning up wires if there is a short between the power source and the bulbs. If that happens you may end up replacing several wires. I suggest going to NAPA and getting a 20 amp (CB6321) or 25 amp (CB6328) circuit breaker and making a power supply jumper wire for testing. (Other parts stores should have, or be able to get, similar breakers to the NAPA numbers I posted.) Use a wire with a test clamp to fit a battery terminal on a wire to one of the circuit breaker studs and a wire on the other terminal with an alligator test clamp you can hook to wires or terminals. Protect the studs on the circuit breaker from shorting out if they touch metal or any ground source. A breaker will trip and reset once it cools, unlike a fuse that is a one time use. Breakers often trip slower, as they trip from heating, than a fuse blows so you get a bit longer to look before power is lost.

bookman51
430 crawler
430 crawler
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 10:20 am
Location: Kearney, Nebraska

Re: Key ignition question

Post by bookman51 » Sat May 16, 2020 10:41 am

Jim, Thanks much. Larry

bookman51
430 crawler
430 crawler
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 10:20 am
Location: Kearney, Nebraska

Re: Key ignition question

Post by bookman51 » Sat May 16, 2020 1:59 pm

Jim, I ran a wire directly from the battery to each of the two front lights. They lit up just fine. They are lights with bulbs in them and single wire. So I assume my problem is in the switch or the wire from the switch. I will see if I get a reading from the wire with the switch on. I need to get a better look at the switch. Maybe some wire is touching at the switch or I am using too light of a fuse. I have bent up the fuse holder getting it out that I am not sure all the connections work now. I have one order and will install and that keep everyone posted.

I also ran a wire directly to the rear light. It initially did not light up. It is a sealed beam light with two wires, one being a ground. I ran a wire from the ground to a bolt on the tractor, which I thought would be a good ground. Light still did not light up. Then I ran a wire to the ground side of the battery (positive in the case of this crawler). The light did lite up. So, in that case, just a bad ground. I have ran into that problem before with 6 volt lights and I have found it to be a challenges sometimes to get a good ground.

Thanks for the help.

Larry

bookman51
430 crawler
430 crawler
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 10:20 am
Location: Kearney, Nebraska

Re: Key ignition question

Post by bookman51 » Sat May 16, 2020 7:23 pm

This evening I took the wire from the combination switch to the front lights and disconnected it at both end. I put a small battery at one end and a ground and then tested the other end with my meter. I am getting juice through the wire. And I did not see any bare spots on the wire where it might be grounding. Tomorrow I will check and see if there is electricity coming into the switch, although there had to be since the tractor would start. Maybe it is wired wrong or there is an internal short in the switch. I do not want to throw money at parts until I figure out what is wrong. Thanks folks.

User avatar
Stan Disbrow
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 2708
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:13 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Key ignition question

Post by Stan Disbrow » Sun May 17, 2020 4:34 am

Hi,

The rear light on a 420 is two lights, hence two wires. Ground is via the fender.

The main light may be a sealed beam. My Phase III 420c has one. That is the Bright rear light. The B on the ILDB switch. The secondary light is a tail lamp bulb. That is the Dim rear light. The D on the ILDB switch. The tail lamp bulb shines thru a ruby (red) window in the reflector of the sealed beam bulb.

This arrangement allows for a red tail lamp when operating the tractor on the roadway at night. The use on a crawler is somewhat questionable. Tracks on pavement and all. But, the 420 was a wheel tractor modified into a crawler, so there we are. And, there were more dirt roads back then, too.

Earlier machines had non sealed beam lamps, but the same applies. Two rear lamps. Bright and Dim. I think I have the last working sealed beam bulb with the red window. We never used a rear light. Heck, hardly ever used the front ones for that matter. Both of those are original, too.

IIRC, there was a later change where they moved away from two bulbs. They added a dropping resistor on the Dim terminal at the ILDB switch and hooked both wires to the sealed beam bulb. Probably a running change when they couldn't get red window bulbs any longer. I don't have my parts catalog here in the house to look that up.

Last time I turned on my Dim rear, just to see if it still worked, the fuse blew. Probably an issue with the tail lamp socket inside the main housing. I haven't bothered to troubleshoot it.

Also, I bypassed the Ignition position with a toggle switch. The I position is worn out on the ILDB switch and is intermittent. Very annoying. Yet the one on my older M wheel tractor is still OK. Go Figure. ;)

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside manual blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Also Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

bookman51
430 crawler
430 crawler
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 10:20 am
Location: Kearney, Nebraska

Re: Key ignition question

Post by bookman51 » Sun May 17, 2020 11:33 am

Stan and all, The front lights are bulb lights. The rear is now sealed beam. Both lights now work, but I had to run a separate wire to get a good ground on the rear light. This morning I worked until I could get to the back of the combination switch. I then ran a wire directly from the negative anode of the battery to the battery connection of the switch. I turned on the lights and they worked (I neglected to check on the rear light but will later). So, it appears the problem is somewhere between the battery and the switch. This seems a bit odd to me since the crawler runs fine and just blows a fuse when I turn on the lights, which, of course, stopped everything. I have a 20 amp fuse in it. I see that the base of the fuse holder is wired to the voltage regulation and the top to the switch. I do not think that would matter, but it is opposite from the wiring diagram. Now it is possible that in messing with the lights I fixed the problem, but I did manage to screw up the fuse holder. I am waiting to get one to replace it. Meanwhile I plan to trace the wires from the switch back to the battery. Maybe there is something there. Also, I am not sure the switch is wired correctly. There is one terminal to which nothing is connected. Thanks

Jim B
350 crawler
350 crawler
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:36 am
Location: western Maine

Re: Key ignition question

Post by Jim B » Sun May 17, 2020 12:03 pm

Taking a guess without seeing it, I suspect on a crawler the terminal with nothing on it might be the one for the rear red taillight used on wheel tractors Stan described.

If it blows the fuse the problem would be after the fuse, so I doubt it is between the fuse and voltage regulator or from the regulator to the battery. It won't hurt to check but its not likely the cause of blowing the fuse is there.

An internal problem in the combination switch could blow the fuse.

User avatar
Lavoy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 10086
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:32 pm
Location: North Dakota
Contact:

Re: Key ignition question

Post by Lavoy » Sun May 17, 2020 3:11 pm

All terminals are used. Battery, ignition, flood (white tail light), tail light (red), head lights.
Key switch breaks the positive connection to the battery terminal on the switch. What normally goes to the battery terminal on the ignition switch, now goes to the key switch, and the other side of the key switch goes to the batt terminal on the ignition switch. So, with the key off, no power goes to the ignition switch, and all ignition switch functions are dead. The crawler will however still turn over if you pull the starter rod.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

bookman51
430 crawler
430 crawler
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 10:20 am
Location: Kearney, Nebraska

Re: Key ignition question

Post by bookman51 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:54 pm

What I do not have is a red rear light. So maybe that is the combination switch not being used. I am more used to a Farmall, and the fuse only protects the lights. So, first time my fuse went out, I was just using the crawler as normal and did not (I do not think) turn on the lights. Took me awhile to figure out the fuse might be the problem cause the engine would turn over. I now know the lights work. And I now know I have good electricity to the switch and coming out of the switch. So once I get a new fuse holder I will see how things go. Thanks

User avatar
Lavoy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 10086
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:32 pm
Location: North Dakota
Contact:

Re: Key ignition question

Post by Lavoy » Mon May 18, 2020 1:07 pm

I have new reproduction fuse holders on hand if you need one.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

bookman51
430 crawler
430 crawler
Posts: 77
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 10:20 am
Location: Kearney, Nebraska

Re: Key ignition question

Post by bookman51 » Fri May 22, 2020 11:53 am

Lavoy, I don't know why I did not think of you regarding the fuse holder. I guess I thought it was a standard item I could get locally. Next time I certainly will think of you....and your good advice and prompt delivery.

Larry

User avatar
Lavoy
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 10086
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:32 pm
Location: North Dakota
Contact:

Re: Key ignition question

Post by Lavoy » Fri May 22, 2020 2:06 pm

I should have mentioned it, thought of it too late.
Lavoy
Parts and restoration for antique and late model John Deere crawlers.
Owner and moderator www.jdcrawlers.com

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests