JD 450 in Sweden

[D557017]

Hello, my name is Ulf and i live just outside of Sunne in Sweden.
I have been offerd a 450 crawler for free if i can get it started so the current owner can do some final digging. It has a loader in the front and a excavator (or is it called backhoe?) in the back.

The owner says it`s made in 1978 and i could see it didn`t have a turbo.
Would that make it a 450b, or could he be mistaken about the year?

Does anyone know where i could get a repair manual for it, or preferably download one? Getting one here in Sweden looks impossible, i don`t know if these machines were even sold here, at least i have never seen one before, ( this machine has been imported from germany.)

I`m gonna work on starting it during my vacation starting week 32, but i just had a quick look last friday.
When trying to start it no smoke at all comes out of the exhaust, so i tried whit a little eter, and then i could see smoke, but there was no tendency of firing. On the other hand the battery was not 100% .
I checked that the injectionpump was beeing fed with diesel properly, and it was, and there is no air in the pump either. Then i tried loosening one of the pipes leading to the injectors and i could see a wery small amount of diesel coming out when cranking the engine, but i could not with my bare eyes see a difference in flow no matter the position of the engine stop control arm.
The pump is a ROBERT BOSCH. Does anyone know if pherhaps the engine stop has a tendency to get "stuck" inside these pumps, or if they are known to have some other problems?
About starting diesels with eter, i have noticed that some engines start and run ok on it, some sound terribly bad when beeing fed with eter, and some doesn`t react much at all, what are your thoughts about that and about this reluctant 450?

Best regards Ulf

[Tigerhaze]

Hi Ulf-

We just had a discussion about manulas for 450 crawlers- you may be able to download them directly from John Deere and it is actually slightly cheaper than a printed manual. The link is on the first response of the following discussion thread:

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... php?t=1829

You will need to double check to make sure you are getting the correct manuals- the previous thread was for a straight 450 crawler loader. I don't know much about serial numbers of those machines- someone like Digitup may be able to help you out.

The attachment on the back is called a backhoe; I have one of those on my 2010 crawler loader and they are pretty handy.

Starting with ether is a contentious topic- opinions vary. You shouldn't use ether for a machine that has glow plugs, as the energized glow plugs could ignite the ether prematurely and cause internal engine damage. My personal opinion is that you should avoid using ether if you can help it and concentrate on adjusting/repairing the portion of the system (electrical or fuel) that is causing hard starting. WD-40 has been mentioned as a less volatile subsitute for ether.

[digitup]

Ulf, Deere industrial in your neck of the woods is fairly rare but there are some ,I imported some 644E loaders several years ago from a guy in Sweden that just couldn't sell them .On this side of the Atlantic they are as respected as Cat are .Find the serial number and I can tell year .If your shifters are both on your left side than it is a 450B .I had manuals for those years ago but I sent them with the machines when I sold them. Any questions just ask .I am not near a computer much lately so be patient for answers .Digitup.

[D557017]

Hello and thank you for the answers so far.
As i mentioned before i wont be working on the machine until week 32 (it`s standing about one hour drive from where i live) but maybe someone could tell me where the serialnumber is located?

Ulf

[JD430C]

hello, serial number for the machine should be on the front of the tool box/battery box just above the fender. the engine serial number is on a tag on the right hand side of the motor between the fuel pump and fuel filter.


Andrew

[D557017]

Hello, i have found two numbers on the machine so far, none on the engine though.

On the instrument panel: SNE7450001041U

Below the driver seat: SNI5E3M013505T

And i have started to work on it. I have checked that diesel comes out of the injectors and that all the valves had lash and that they open at roughly the right time.
After that i took a compression test and found that it was only a little less then 200psi, so i poured a little bit of oil in the cylinder and got almost 300psi. When i put the injejtor back in the cylinder with the oil in it the engine showed some signs of firing due to the oil helping seal the compression pressure in.
So now i have taken the cylinderhead off and taken the pistons out, about half the piston rings were broken into small pieces and the cylinder walls were quite ugly too.
This engine is gonna need new cylinder sleeves, pistons and a valve job.

Can the machine be identified by the numbers i found so that i can get the right parts and perhaps a manual? Or do i need a number from the engine?

Could anyone tell me things like torque values for the rods and head? Do the heads need to be retorqued after starting the engine? How high above the engine block should the sleeves sit?

Are there kits with sleeves pistons and rings? How much would these parts cost in the USA?

Thankful for all help and tips, Ulf Jansson

[CatD8RII]

Im pretty sure the B models were turbocharged. I think it would be a 4239?? Mother Deere offers an overhaul kit , which has piston and liners pre-assembled. Price through JDparts is about $875. I couldnt see doing all that work without changing the injectors too. Im assuming youd be sending the head out to a shop to do the valve work? I spent about $3500 on a 3152 (3 cylinder) for a 350C,however that included new everything exept the block crank and head. Guess what im saying is you could spend as much as you want. just depends how well you want it to run. Oh one other thing, cylinder liner portrusion should be about .001" to .004" on a 3152 and 3164 engine. The 4239 and 4276 engines call for .0004" to .0039" but you need a clamp to span the liners and push them down as if the head was still installed. As far as tourqing the head goes, you need to get a serivce manual for the correct pattern.

[Lavoy]

If you have trouble getting overhaul parts in your area, let me know, I have a couple different sources that I use.
Lavoy

[D557017]

Hello again, since last time i have given the head a valve job and adjusted the opening pressure of the injectors.

I also took a drive to go and see if i could find something on the block to identify the engine.
I still could not find a tag, but i found some numbers that were cast into the block and some that were stamped.

Cast: 280 and T32342

Stamped: 290CT01970

875 dollars for pistons and sleeves? that is more expensive then i had hoped for, but maybe there is non original JD parts for a lower price?

I have been trying to get parts here i Sweden, but the companies i talk to have not even heard of JD 450, and the numbers from the engine do not seem to help much either.

So yes Lavoy, Digitup and others, i would like help in knowing where to get parts and identifying the machine and it`s engine.

Maybe it would be better to import the parts myself if someone knows where to get them at a the right price?
The thing is, if something costs 600 dollars in the USA, it will easily cost me 1000 dollars before i get my hands on them.

All help greatly appreciated

Ulf

[digitup]

Ulf that machine was made in late 1971 and your serial #is the one on the kick panel under the seat .The motor is a 4-219 cubic inch naturally aspired 65hp. I have a neighbor that exports antique tractors all over Europe.He is getting me several prices on sleeve kits for that machine at this time .how are your rod bearings for pitting .Look for small silver or black pits in the bearing half's when they are apart .As the antifreeze could have been in the oil for some time .Get back with a price as soon as possible .Digitup.

[digitup]

That didn't take long .The best price for jobber parts is$880 Canadian.This includes sleeves ,pistons, ring sets all bearings, gaskets rod bolts as well as balancer bearings and new crank seals front and back .specific to a 450B rebuild . Digitup.

[D557017]

Hello and thank you digitup, so the machine is a -71 and not a -78, the owner will be surprised to hear that. But it is a 450B ?

I was positively surprised by how good the rod bearings looked and there has been no antifreeze in the oil, the reason for replaceing the sleeves isn`t that they are leaking, but that they are wery worn on the inside.

My plan as for needed parts are:

sleeves+pistons+rings
oil pan gasket
gasket kit for the cylinder head
oil filter

Is 4-219 the actual name of the engine?

Best regards Ulf

[digitup]

Ulf the 450Bs were discontinued in 1974-1975 By these numbers it is a 450B which it probably is then there should be an other digit in there in the 013505T area .The 450Cs started at 191829 in late 1974.Deeres engine identification was /number of cylinders -cubic inches so 450s have 4-202 engines 450Bs have 4-219engines and 450Cs have4-219Tengines[T is Turbo]The newer numbers now are all in 1 # of cylinders and liters separated by a 0 only for the power tech motors I just found out that the T after serial# is for tractor unit .I am still trying to figure out the build code before the serial#.I noticed you wondered about starting this unit on ether .With worn out sleeves and rings it should be no problem .Just don't use too much as it will lockup and this isn't good.You shouldn't need any after the rebuild as you will have better compression and quicker side wall ignition . I find if you use ether too much than they tend to get dependent on it .As it tears the sleeves and rings when washing the oil off of them .That is a 4-219 Deere engine you should be able to find the serial plate on it and it will say 4219 although you mentioned you had a Robert Bosch injector system look closely and see if you have a Rosa master or Stanadine unit instead .These are original equipment for this crawler unit .We get a lot of cold weather in the winters and some rebuild kits wont start in the winter so watch what will fit kits and Deere has a couple of kits they wont sell in the north as well for that 4-219 watch what you get .I rebuilt two of these units a winter for several years .As I have went to 6 new dozer units in the last few years I am trying to get away from that winter project of rebuilding motors .It wont take long to do a sleeve kit though .Digitup.

[D557017]

Hello digitup and everyone else, when searching the internet for parts by using the T32342 number from the engine, the kits i find say 202cui and 3.86 bore.
This engine has 3.86 bores, but i dont know the stroke since i didn`t think of measuring it before i took the pistons out, so i dont know if it is a 202 or 219.
Does the stroke or the bore make the difference in size betveen these two engines?
If it is a 202cui, would that make the machine a 450A?

I have a German spare parts list for the injectionpump and by the picture in it the pump is definetly a Robert Bosch

Digitup, about problems starting with some rebuild kits, do you meen that the pistons in these kits have larger combustion chambers or something else?

I cant find a tag/plate anywhere on the engine.

Starting this engine, with half the pistonrings broken and leaky valves on ether, was like trying to start a petrol engine without a ignition system on ether -impossible.

Thanks for all help so far

Ulf

[digitup]

The 4- 202 was different in the stroke and didn't start in the winter that great. As for the kits that didn't start nice in the cold .I think they just pond them off on the southerners .But when I priced the kit I made sure that it was the one I get for them before. The parts guy even looked into it and he told me that is all he orders any more because of a few complaints .That is a 4-219 kit specific to the 450B dozers not the agricultural build .If you have that pump than check to see if the motor is even stock just in case some one shoehorned something into that Deere,Stranger things have happened I guess.If it is a 4- 202 it should be a 450 by the book .Are both shifters on the left side .If it was a 450 the gear shift is on the floor between your legs .The SNE7450001041U on the dash is an up date kit # see if someone took a drill to your power shift unit and installed a neuteral notch in the cast housing .All machines with that upgrade got a sticker on the dash or the serial number plate area .Digitup.