450C Engine Clutch Disc

[DLE55]

Hello,
I have been reading this message board and it's been very helpful.
I recently bought a 450C that needed a throw out bearing. Engine clutch disc and pressure plate was bad also. The disc was coming apart. The new disc I got does not have any springs in it. It's solid. The guy said that it was a replacement for the ones with springs in them and it's fine.
Is it ok to to use this disc? Would it cause any problems?
I started to just go with it but it's to much work to have to change it later.
Thanks for your help,
David Edwards

[RANDY Fay]

I have not run into any of this style clutch in the crawlers yet--I don't see where it would be a problem --deere uses this style clutch in almost all the older PTO's on farm tractors which is what this clutch has to do there is no shock from shifting up and down Have fun Randy

[Lavoy]

David,
That is the style engine clutch disc that I put in the two clyinders. I have probably 50 of them out as well as installed in my own stuff, never had a failure. Plus like Randy said, you really don't use the engine clutch on a 450 anyhow. If you want to go with that style, I can probably get your original rebuilt if it is not too badly damaged. I also have the gauge available for setting the finger height on the 450's now too.
Lavoy

[jdemaris]

Hello,
I recently bought a 450C that needed a throw out bearing. Engine clutch disc and pressure plate was bad also. The disc was coming apart. The new disc I got does not have any springs in it. It's solid. The guy said that it was a replacement for the ones with springs in them and it's fine.
Is it ok to to use this disc? Would it cause any problems?
I started to just go with it but it's to much work to have to change it later.
Thanks for your help,
David Edwards

If it were mine, I'd be nervous about using any solid replacement disk. Deere engineering felt, for many years, that some sort of torsional dampener was needed. Having spring dampers isn't just about how you use the clutch. It serves as a torsional dampener and absorbs rotational shock-loading on the input of the transmission. When a 450 is used as designed, with a lot of high-throttle power-shifts - there's lot of shocks applied to the input. That is especially true with a C series. Deere used that spring loaded plate on all power-shifts until they stopped making small crawlers.
If you are getting this part as a substitution from Deere, I'd looked elsewhere. Do not assume that Deere only subs parts because they are better. That is far from true.
The original 11" spring-loaded disk is still available new from many places. AT160477 with a 7" dampener, 11" diam. facing area, 1.25" OD splines X 10.
If you've had any experience with the 1010 and/or 350 crawlers, Deere had many types of elaborate dampeners in front of the reverser. 450s with an HL-R behave in the same way as the F-R unit in the 350s - except the 450 has more power and needs it more, not less.
1010s and early 350s used a spring-dampened disk just like your 450 has. They worked fine. Later 350s changed over to an elaborate isolater with separate springs, anchors, etc. They failed often. Then, with the 350D series, Deere changed one more time - with a solid rubber type isolator. The point is though - that Deere always felt something was needed at the flywheel to absorb rotational shock when hooked to a power-shift transmission.
So, question is now - did you get a Deere updated 12" kit as a sub, or did you get aftermarket?

[jdemaris]

I looked up the spec sheet to see what John Deere Company uses in their "Certified Relife" program when they rebuild 450Cs and resell them.

I see they are using the 12" clutch kit, # AT104345. Is that whay you have?

Here's Deere's list of updates they use on the 450Cs.

JD450C*
CERTIFIED RELIFE
SPECIFICATION
ITEM
Repower Engine 4 Cylinder 4039D
Clutch and Pressure Plate AT104345
H-L-R High Range Clutch
H-L-R Reverse Clutch
H-L-R Low Range Clutch
Steer Clutch (2)
Clutch Oil Manifold AR56620
R52038 Manifold Gasket
AR53084 Shift Valve Housing
R39781 Valve Spool
R78179 Valve Spool
Final Drive Parts (2)
T75360, AT72157, JD9055,
T31999
T55233, JD9118, JD9326, JD8992
JD8206, AT18387, T112130, T148796
Hydraulic Pump AT38801 (23 GPM)
Valve 3 Spool AT71452
Cylinder Seal Kit AR105453(2)
Structure Bushing U16875(2)
Radiator AT11677
Alternator TY6607
Starter RE50095
Sheet Metal
T38008 Lift Side
AT39135 Right Side
AT64826 Hood
Undercarriage
AT71674 Roller (10)
T129880 Sprocket (2)
AT31129 Idler Roller (2)
AT86204 Front Idler Kit (2)
AT148564 16”Track with Shoes (2)
Push Beam AT58689
Blade AT104970 (96”)
Battery AT29160(2)
Engine Wiring Harness AT64568
Seat
AT18697 Back Cushion
AT23482 Seat Cushion
AT18698 Right Arm Cushion
AT18699 Left Arm Cushion
Fan Belt T24473
Lights AT18815(3)
Muffler AT64813
AR38397 Muffler Extension
Hourmeter AT160120
Paint
Miscellaneous Bearings and Pulleys

[DLE55]

Thanks everyone for the information.
I sent the solid disc back yesterday. I was to worried about it. The splines in the hub were even 1/4" shorter than my old one.
I have an AT160477 11" disc on the way. I have a rebuilt 11"pressure plate, it looks just like the old one. (Except new) I didn't know about the 12" before or I would have tried to get that.
The adjustment screws and nuts on the rebuilt pressure plate have been painted red. The guy I got the pressure plate from said it should be set from the factory.
Lavoy, do you know the measurement from the flywheel to the fingers? I made a gauge to set an International tractor. The book for it had the measurements.
The old disc was really bad but still working. The HLR was bad out of adjustment when I got the dozer and it was shifting really hard. The guy that had it was using the pedal to shift the HLR. I guess the spring disc was doing its job.
Thanks for your help,
David Edwards

[Lavoy]

David,
No I don't, never worked on a 450. I had to borrow a guage from a guy to even make the ones I have because I could not find one to buy.
Lavoy

[RANDY Fay]

I do belive that 1/4" shorter splines would have been a problem. sure sounds like this was a pto clutch out of one of the farm tractors have fun Randy

[jdemaris]

Thanks everyone for the information.

I look at it like this. The spring-loaded 11" disk was used in every 450 crawler ever built with an HL-R and sold by Deere along with other power-shift transmissions. That includes the Ag tractors and log skidders with 8 speed Power Shift. Any machine that could be shifted under full power had a torsional dampener. We had zero problems with the 450C setup and it was used at least up to the 450G series. 350Bs to Cs were a different deal, and they failed often. We had several new 350Cs that siezed a week after we sold them, due to failed isoator springs at the flywheel. In the late 80s, Deere went through some major cost-cutting, and tried to remove anything from their machines that could take some dollars off the new price-tag. They took the same engine as your 450C has, and tried using it without the balance shafts in the 210 series. They were awful and shook badly at low speeds. Deere quickly started putting the shafts back in. My point is - even during Deere's cost-cutting, they never removed those spring-loaded dampers - so I assume they felt they were necessary for long life in an HL-R.
The new updated clutch kit that Deere sells now -comes with a 12" solid disk, that was already being used in some later machines. I suspect those later machines were better suited for it with addtional trans-mods that your 450C does not have.
Over the years, Deere has come out with some great parts updates - the aforementioned three-seal sleeves being one. The EID dampener inside the Stanadyne fuel-injection pump being another (which you'll probably need sometime). But, Deere also subs parts at times as part of cost-cutting and inventory reduction. If they find a new parts that will fit an older machine - they will often drop the original and sub the new one - even if it's not as good as the original. We went through this a lot with large Ag tractors and 440-540 log skidders.
In regard to PTO clutches versus the one Deere subs for the 450C now? I don't know. The biggest Deere tractors we ever sold used 11" PTO disks with fine splines - 29 of them. Deere calls for a 12" in your 450C with 10 coarse splines.
In regard to an adjustment gauge - fine a Deere dealer with the gauge for the original clutch - and trace it onto a piece of cardboard. Then cut it out and use it. We had customers coming in, doing that almost on a daily basis, for one Deere or another.