Injector Pump Spraying Fuel!!

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squarede
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Injector Pump Spraying Fuel!!

Post by squarede » Mon May 19, 2008 9:12 am

Greetings,
I have a 1968 350 Diesel, and my injection pump is missing the wire and who knows what else from the shut off solenoid.
I am planning on having the pump rebuilt when I go on vacation this summer, but the pump has started spraying fuel from the place where the wire should be and I cannot afford to shut down right now.
I tried to seal the hole with "right stuff" gasket maker knowing full well that it would not work.
Does anyone have any ideas on how I can plug this up temporarily until I can get the pump rebuilt?
Also, are there any suggestions on someone that is knowledgeable in rebuilding these pumps and injectors and is reasonably price and dependable?
Thanks for any advice.

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Tigerhaze
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Post by Tigerhaze » Mon May 19, 2008 11:32 am

I can't answer your specific question, but I do know that there have been several recent posts about reliable injector pump rebuilders in New England (specifically upstate NY) so you may want to search for that post.
(1) JD Straight 450 crawler dozer with manual outside blade; (2) JD 2010 diesel crawler loaders; (1) JD 2010 diesel dozer with hydraulic 6-way blade; (2) Model 50 backhoe attachments, misc. other construction equipment

jdemaris

Re: Injector Pump Spraying Fuel!!

Post by jdemaris » Mon May 19, 2008 2:18 pm

squarede wrote:Greetings,
I have a 1968 350 Diesel, and my injection pump is missing the wire and who knows what else from the shut off solenoid.

are there any suggestions on someone that is knowledgeable in rebuilding these pumps and injectors and is reasonably price and dependable?
Thanks for any advice.
I worked at several Roosamaster/Stanadyne pumps shops, two at Deere dealerships. I can probably answer your question - but need more info. 350s used two totally different Roosamaster pumps - a C series and a D series. In either pump, that leak is not high pressure - maybe 20 PSI max.

C series is obsolete and parts have been unavailable for years. It's a small roundish pump and the shut-off wife hooks to the side with a push-on connector. The shut-off solenoid unscrews and there is a rubber washer underneath that seals it. This pump has a long throttle tube that sticks out the back and has rack and pinion gears inside of it that hook to the throttle cable.
350s - used the following C pumps - CDC331-3DG, CDC331-4DG, CDC331-6DG, CBC331-1AL, CBC331-6AL, CBC331-16AL

D series - e.g. DB, JDB, etc. - if equipped with an electric shut-off, has the wire bolted to a small stup on top of the pump. If that's where your leak is - it's an easy 10 - 15 minute fix to do it right.
350s - used the following D pumps - DBGFC331-2DH, DBGFC331-13DH, JDB331AL2732, JDB331MD2797, JDB331-AL2405

For the later D pumps, you can buy complete seal kits for less then $20. To fix the leak at the solenoid stud - you remove the top cover via three small bolts. Then unbolt the solenoid via two small nuts. Then just replace the rubber seals and insulators on the two studs and put all back together. No adjustments get changed - it's very straight forward and easy to do.

squarede
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Post by squarede » Mon May 19, 2008 3:36 pm

Thanks for the replies.
The pump that I have is model CBC 131 1AL.
The push-on connectoer is missing, and there is a threaded rod sticking out.
Is there a way to remove this and put in a plug, or should I replace the seal?
If this pump is obsolete, should I replace with another pump rather than rebuild?
If so, which pump, If not, who can rebuild it for me?
Thanks again,
Ray

jdemaris

Post by jdemaris » Mon May 19, 2008 5:18 pm

squarede wrote:Thanks for the replies.
The pump that I have is model CBC 131 1AL.

who can rebuild it for me?

Ray
That pump cannot be rebuilt. Parts were discontinued for it over 20 years ago. Up to around 10 years ago, a few pump guys had some old-stock parts - but as far as I know, they are all gone.

When all parts support for the C-series pump was dropped by Stanadyne, Deere came out with a change-over kit to install the newer D series pump. That kit is still available. Only difference now is - it comes with a rebuilt pump - and back in the 80s it came with a factory-new pump. Kit consists of a new timing gear, pump drive-shaft, injector lines, injection pump and a hold-down adapter to make the pump fit your engine. I've got two Deeres here that have both gotten the kit - a 1020 and a 300B.

As far a fixing what you have - you cannot even buy a seal-kit for that pump. But, I'm sure you could find a used solenoid. I had a bucket full of them, but I think I sold my last last year. Just pull it out - drill it out where the leak is - and epoxy it. There is NO high-pressure fuel there - only low-pressure. But - shutting it off can't be easy. I'm assuming someone removed the little shut-off plunger and spring inside - and that's why it runs with no power hooked to it.

One other thing I'll mention - just about none of these injection pumps get "rebuilt", but I guess it depends on what the word means to you. When you buy a rebuilt pump, or pay to have one rebuilt, just about all the major moving parts are used over again - just as they are. If major parts are bad, often the pump is scrapped - or you get charged extra and get no core-credit. Most pumps sold as "rebuilt" have minor parts installed with new seals to prevent leakage, and then calibration is checked and/or adjusted. That's all. Many pumps come out of the shop with less than $50 in new parts installed.

squarede
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Post by squarede » Mon May 19, 2008 6:09 pm

Thanks so much for your reply. It's great to get answers from someone who really knows what they are talking about.
I have looked at the John Deere EPC, and cannot locate the kit that you are talking about. I guess I'll have to give Deere a call. I am not looking forward to this as I'm sure it will mean $$$$$$$ -which I don't have.
Right now I have the throttle adjusted so that I can kill the engine by kicking it down all the way. Clearly, this is not ideal, but works.
So, for right now, I think I'll have to figure out how to plug up the leak on the pump that I have.
Can I just grab on to the threaded thingy that sticks out and pull it out?
Should I just try to fill around it with an epoxy instead of the "right stuff" that I tried before.
Last question, do you happen to have access to a schematic of this section so that I can see what I'm working on?
Thanks again!
Ray

jdemaris

Post by jdemaris » Mon May 19, 2008 7:00 pm

squarede wrote:Thanks so much for your reply.
I have looked at the John Deere EPC, and cannot locate the kit that you are talking about. I guess I'll have to give Deere a call.
Ray
Call a Deere dealer and you'll probably get worse info that the website - unless you happen to know a good dealer that really knows somehing.

All the info is at the Deere website. With some machines - the kit comes in one piece. With others - like your 350, you have to order three or four part #s. Here's the info. Find yourself a good used JDB or DB pump somewhere and you can save a lot of money. These are dealer list prices - maybe you do better if you know somebody or get a shop-discount. The parts that you need are the same regardless if you had a CDC or a CBC pump. You need the pump, adaptive kit, and a few lines.

(ROOSA-MASTER NO. CDC-331-3DG, CDC-331-4DG AND CDC-331-6DG) (SUB
AR69817 FUEL INJECTION PUMP, AR69809 ADAPTIVE KIT, AR50895 FUEL LINE,
AND AT27616 LEAK-OFF LINE, THIS APPLICATION

(ROOSA-MASTER NO. CBC331-1AL) (SUB AR69817 FUEL INJECTION PUMP,
AR69809 ADAPTIVE KIT, AR50895 FUEL LINE AND AT27616 LEAK-OFF LINE,
THIS APPLICATION

AR69817 Injection pump Part Price: 1,518.28 USD Core Value: (200.00 USD) End Price With Core Return:
1,318.28 USD

Part Number: AR69809
Part Price: 132.00 USD
Description: KIT,FUEL INJ. PUMP ADAPTING

Part Number: AR50895
Part Price: 26.39 USD
Description: LINE,FUEL FILTER TO INJECTION PUMP

Part Number: AT27616
Part Price: 13.80 USD
Description: LINE,FUEL INJECTION PUMP

squarede
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Post by squarede » Mon May 19, 2008 7:07 pm

Wow!
Thanks a lot for the info.
Ray

jdemaris

Post by jdemaris » Mon May 19, 2008 7:16 pm

squarede wrote:Wow!
Thanks a lot for the info.
Ray
I forgot to answer one of your questions. That little solenoid is threaded in - it just unscrews counter-clockwise. It has go slots - you can grab hold of it by using two regular screwdrivers and just unscrew it. Yes, there is a special tool - but using twin screwdriver does the job fine. Once out - you can get the solenoid housing dry and clean - and then plug the hole from the inside. It has a little hole/cylinder bored into it and there used to be a little piston and small spring inside. That was the shut-off plunger. I'm sure it was removed and thrown out a long time ago - or it wouldn't be running. You can just stick some RTV sealant in that hole - let it dry, and then reinstall.

If you still need photos and some Roosmaster diagrams - let me know and I'll post them.

squarede
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Post by squarede » Tue May 20, 2008 2:12 pm

Update:
Two screwdrivers locked in a needlenose vise-grip worked great to get the solenoid out. No problem there.
I took the whole thing out, and cleaned with brake cleaner.
I made a new solid gasket out of some gasket material that would close off the whole completely and put the thing back together with some RTV.
No leaks, and I'm back to work.
Thanks for the helpful advice.
I think that I'm still going to buy a new style pump and adapter kit when I can.
I'd love to update and install new injectors too so that I can have more power as well as a proper shut-off mechanism.
Thanks again,
Ray

jdemaris

Some photos/diagrams.

Post by jdemaris » Wed May 21, 2008 7:02 am

squarede wrote:Update:
.
I made a new solid gasket out of some gasket material that would close off the whole completely and put the thing back together with some RTV.
No leaks, and I'm back to work.
Thanks for the helpful advice.
I didn't mean to give the idea that this model pump is a bad one. There are still many around. In fact, I've got a 4020 here with 30,000 hours on it with the original CB pump. The earlier models - i.e. CDC pumps had many problems - but then got a long list of updates and became CBC pumps like you have. I think Stanadyne/Roosamaster really gave people the shaft when they cut off all parts for it over 20 years ago. To Deere Company' credit - they came out with the changeover kit and still sell it.
If you plan on keeping the machine long-term, you might consider buying the adaptive kit - even if you don't buy a pump. You never know when Deere will discontinue it - it it's seems to be a bargain in today's parts world. Comes with a new timing gear, injector lines, JDB pump hold-down kit, and pump driveshaft.

Problem with the CBC is not pump design - it's just that NO parts are available - so it's not worth spending any money on. If you could either - find a used solenoid assembly (complete with plunger), or convert to manual shut-off, and took care of the pump, it could last a long time. Weak spot is the throttle assembly that sticks out the back of the pump. It has a set of rack and pinion gears in it that are prone to wear. I used to carry a bag full of new ones in my tool box - but cannot buy them anymore. If your's wears - usually the pinion gear wears first. When it does - you can usually turn it over and get more life out of it.

In regard to that solid gasket you installed, if any of it - in the center- put pressure on the center-port it could shut the pump off - but maybe there is ample clearance. That's how the solenoid works when all the parts are there. There is a little piston and spring - and with no electricity - it closes the little low-pressure fuel port in the center and keeps the pump from working. When you energize it - electromagnetic force pulls the piston away. They used to get stuck once in awhile - and often the solenoid got pulled off and the piston thrown away - just as a "quick fix." Sounds like that's what was done to your's.

Here are more diagrams than you probably care to see.

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squarede
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Post by squarede » Wed May 21, 2008 10:07 am

I have yet to be in a situation where there are more diagrams than I want to see. Information is power, and I never tire of learning more about how things work.
Thanks said, My fix seems to be working fine, and seems that I have more power than I need. I do have trouble starting because of the way that I shut off the machine -especially in cold weather. I guess that is my main problem right now.
I did talk to a local stanadyne guy and he said that he had come up with a way to add another type of shut-off solenoid. Never asked about his stock of seals, etc but I will.
Right now I'm operating on the i"it ain't really broke" philosophy.
I've got too much to do right now to deal with it anyway.
Thanks so much for the info and pictures.
Ray

jdemaris

Post by jdemaris » Wed May 21, 2008 10:58 am

squarede wrote: I did talk to a local stanadyne guy and he said that he had come up with a way to add another type of shut-off solenoid. Never asked about his stock of seals, etc but I will.
You can just back out the idle-speed screw and control engine idle speed with the hand throttle. This way, when you jam it down, the engine will shut of.

If you get stuck for a seal or something - post here or email me an I might be able to dig one up. I probably worked on hundreds of those pumps over the years and I've got a 5 gallon buck near filled with used parts and new seals. Broke open many complete seal kits over the years just to get one or two o-rings and the rest went into the "C" bucket. I dug a complete working solenoid out of there a few months ago and gave it to a guy over at the YT forum. I don't think I have anymore - but sometime I'll look closer. The thing is - spending a couple of bucks here and there is fine. But, it makes little sense to spend any big money on that pump. If you look around, I'm sure you can find a used JDB or DB pump for $100 or less, and then put the time and/or money into that instead. Then buy the Deere adaptive kit, install it, and you're all set.

squarede
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Post by squarede » Wed May 21, 2008 12:36 pm

Great Advice again - Thanks!

dale
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Post by dale » Thu May 22, 2008 5:37 am

jdemaris wrote: You can just back out the idle-speed screw and control engine idle speed with the hand throttle. This way, when you jam it down, the engine will shut of.
Not knowing any better.....Could you take the cap off, drill out the stud and replace it with a rod /spring assembly to make a manual shutoff?

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