Reman Hydraulic Pumps?

[Lowly]

Has anyone had experience buying reman Hydraulic Pumps? I've torn down the pump on my 3010 (ok,ok, it's a wheel tractor), I even had my JD dealer tear it down and it won't work for long. Charge pump seems to be fine,but nothing from the main pump. I'm going to tear it down one more time but I did see some places on the internet that sell remans pretty reasonable, at least compared to a new one from Deere. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Lowly

[digitup2]

I rebuilt a transmision in a 1969 -4020 with 14000 hours on it Two years ago and I know the main pump or high pressure is very tollerance criticle yes that pump was big bucks I just can't belive that a rebuilt pump would last the same hours as the origional pump .The low pressure pump is in good shape though is it. I guess if you want to put big hours on the tractor than go Deeres own .If you are just nocking around with the old John Deere than a rebuild is OK .I actualy have never put a rebuilt part in a Deere transmission my self .Digitup.

[Lowly]

Good point on the longevity question. On one hand the tractor is the same model year I am (1961), on the other hand I love raking hay with it. With the narrow front end and JD power steering it is unbelievably agile and it is really good on fuel. Seems like you can rake all afternoon on 5 gallons. I pulled it out of the back row at my JD dealer 15 years ago, paid a $1,000 for it, did a lot of work to it and have hardly had a wrench on it since. The paint and tinwork are poor but it starts and runs like a dream. But, $565.00 for a reman (if the company is reputable) vs $1950.00 for a new one from Mother Deere is tempting.

[Lavoy]

I have remans available, I see no problem with running them.
Lavoy

[jdemaris]

Has anyone had experience buying reman Hydraulic Pumps? I've torn down the pump on my 3010 (ok,ok, it's a wheel tractor), I even had my JD dealer tear it down and it won't work for long.

Repairing/rebuilding a gear pump in an open-center system is much different that doing so with a piston-pump is a closed-center system - like in your 3010.

The Deere piston pump can always be "rebuilt" to a degree that it certainly can last as long as a new one. All the moving wear parts can be renewed - EXCEPT - the piston bores. New pistons and springs - yes, but the bores remain as-is. That has nothing to do with life, just how much oil will be pumped. So, a "rebuilt" pump with worn piston bores will pump less oil when hot, that's all. The 8 intake valves, 8 discharge valves, driveshaft, Timken-style bearings, stroke control valve, pistons, and springs are all available new. I'll add that I did all the pump rebuilding at a Deere dealership. At that time, we had no way of renewing piston bores. But, I believe that some companies now are boring them out and installing repair sleeves. By doing that, a rebuilt pump would be 100% as good as new.

A gear pump is totally different. For main hydraulic pumps, Deere has used Cessna and Webster-Electric. The Webster pumps were built better then the Cessnas and all repair parts were available. But, Deere mostly dropped them in 1961 (except for some small winch pumps). The Cessnas are more-or-less throw-away pumps. Early on some repair parts were available, but no more. When they get worn, the shafts and bushing gets loose, and the front housing and gear faces get scored. When they happens, they get high pressure oil leaking out - and usually blowing out the front dust seal. There is no process to rebuild. There are seal kits available, but they won't do you much good with a worn pump.

[Lowly]

Rebuilding a worn pump, like you say, is pretty straight forward if you know what you are doing. But this pump pumps almost no oil at all and what little does come out looks like it has gone through a blender at high speed, almost foamy (not white though, no water).

Lavoy, the online parts catalog shows both the AR94660 and the AR101807 as replacement pumps for a 3010. Is there anything to choose between them and what would your price and availablility look like? I still want to look into mine once I get it out but I want to have a plan B ready to go if I can't find the problem.

Thanks

[jdemaris]

There's no more reason to completely replace a Deere piston pump than there is to replace an entire engine. If the main block or casting is ruined replacement is usually needed with either. Otherwise, both can be fixed unless parts stop being available. They were worth fixing years back when new ones cost $500. Now, they are MORE worth fixing considering some new ones cost $2000.

If your pump isn't pumping oil, there's a reason. Keep in mind that piston pumps cannot draw any oil to themselves, new or old. They must be fed oil, unlike gear pumps. They must be fed a steady stream of air-free oil, just like diesel fuel injection pumps. They have pistons, intake valves, and outlet valves. All very easy to take out and inspect for damage.

In regard to the two pumps you mentioned, just two different sizes. AR97872 is 2.4 cubic inches and is the only one I've ever seen on a 3010. The other is 3 cubic inches. 2.4 cubic inches (the smaller) is a lot of pump considering many Deere utiltiy tractors came with .8 or 1.3 cubic inch pumps e.g. the 2510, 1020, etc. The 3 cubic inch pump was a popular backhoe pump. Even 3020s only had the 2.4 pump. 4020s came with 2.4s or the 3 as an option.

[Lowly]

I don't have a gauge to measure the flow or the pressure but the transmission pump appears to deliver some thing like the 4 gallons a minute that it should. It definetly puts out a way bigger stream than the main pump. I'm only judging the transmission pump by disconnecting the pipe at the main pump inlet and attaching a hose and letting it pump oil back to the fill pipe. So no pressure test at all but a pretty good stream flowing and not at all frothy like the tiny stream from the main pump. Does the oil from the transmission pump need much pressure? Any shade tree suggestions for checking pressure if it is important?

[jdemaris]

I don't have a gauge to measure the flow or the pressure but the transmission pump appears to deliver some thing like the 4 gallons a minute that it should. It definetly puts out a way bigger stream than the main pump. I'm only judging the transmission pump by disconnecting the pipe at the main pump inlet and attaching a hose and letting it pump oil back to the fill pipe. So no pressure test at all but a pretty good stream flowing and not at all frothy like the tiny stream from the main pump. Does the oil from the transmission pump need much pressure? Any shade tree suggestions for checking pressure if it is important?

No pressure needed to make the front pump work. Transmisson pumps often feed other things e.g. independent PTO, hi-low, reversers, etc. and for those things more pressure is needed. I have, in the past, used flow-rater test equipment for problem machines - especially backhoes with problems that only show up when hot. But in most cases, the old bucket test is all you need. Disconnect a line, put a 5 gallon pail under it, and run for 10 seconds or so. If you get a 1/2 gallon in 10 seconds, that's 3 GPM which is plenty.

If you are sure there is oil coming out all the time (from the trans pump) and the front pump is not working - it's time to pull it apart and look at it.
What ever the problem is, it will be obvious. If some other dealer had it apart previously, and didn't think it was going to last - what was the explanation given? Some dealers have no idea how to properly repair a pump and only install seal kits. I've thrown out several over the years, but that was only with pumps with main housings that were totally destroyed. Even a pump that's half worn out can be patched up and will work reliably - but will just pump less oil than it should and maybe cause hard starting in the cold.

[jdemaris]

Any shade tree suggestions for checking pressure if it is important?

A few more comments. Even though pressure oil is not needed, the total absence of pressure will indicate that the front pump is starving for oil. Most main pumps have a test port for charge oil. Some early ones don't and have that test-hole plugged. If your main pump has two test ports - one is for main pressure around 2200 PSI, and the other (lower) is for charge oil. If that one reads anything while running, you're OK.

[Lavoy]

The charge pumps usually don't puke all at once. I know when they get weak, in a high flow situation, you will get chatter. Our oldest 4020 has a loader on it, and when you are raising the loader, on occasion, it will start to chatter as the main pump runs out of oil. It is not a big enough deal that we are going to replace the charge pump, it is a power shift, so a double split to get at it.
Lavoy

[Lowly]

I had a 4020 with a loader that did the same thing, or if you were working in a tight space, working the loader with the clutch out, you would run out of oil and need to give it a minute with the clutch in to catch up. My 3010 isn't like that and it did pass the "bucket test" by putting out a decent stream at the inlet port. It's been too cold here lately to work on getting the main pump out but I am looking forward to looking into it. It almost seems like a blockage but looking at the schematics in my service manual and thinking about the pump I can't think where it would be or where the blocking material could have come from.

[jdemaris]

It almost seems like a blockage but looking at the schematics in my service manual and thinking about the pump I can't think where it would be or where the blocking material could have come from.

In any Deere tractor with a closed-center pump, the amount of oil going to that pump must keep up with the oil going out. On many Deere models, a reserve oil reservoir is added that gives a gravity-feed charge of oil to the main pump when needed - in addition to the trans pump. The smaller utility tractors e.g. 1020, 2020, 300 and 400 industrials - all have them, as well as some of the larger tractors. It' usually a vertical tank mounted in front of the radiator. It feeds the main pump oil when the trans pump cannot make up the difference.

In your case, I assume you've already checked the most obvious - i.e. the transmisson trans-pump suction screen? Also, the main hydraulic pump has a metal filter-screen inside the control housing. I assume since the pump has been all part, it's been looked at already.

[Lowly]

I did check the suction screen, down in the bottom of the transmission and that was clear. One strange thing is that my service manual shows the filter that you mention, I think it is in with the crankcase inlet valve. Right next to the stroke control valve anyway, but my pump doesn't have it. Actually the plugs, spring and valve that come out of that cylinder don't look much like the drawing in the service manual either. The mechanic that worked on it at my JD dealer (not my favorite old guy but a younger one) said something about it not being the right pump for a 3010 but I didn't pay much attention. When I get it out I'll get the number. This pump did work without a hitch for years. No oil resevoir on this one, just the oil cooler.

[jdemaris]

The mechanic that worked on it at my JD dealer (not my favorite old guy but a younger one) said something about it not being the right pump for a 3010 but I didn't pay much attention. When I get it out I'll get the number. This pump did work without a hitch for years. No oil resevoir on this one, just the oil cooler.

You've got me a bit intriqued about what pump you have. Deere didn't make a lot of different ones. On German based Manheim tractors Deere used the little German piston pumps - .69 cubic inches or 1.38 cubic inches. Both the same physical size, but one has four pistons, and the other has eight. These pumps don't have splined driveshafts -they use a keyway. The USA Deere pumps all pretty much look the same and are usually 2.4 cubic inches or 3 cubic inches for farm tractors - EXCEPT - Deere made a few of the 2.4 pumps with every other piston left out - so they were only four pistons and 1.2 cubic inches. Later on, Deere new replacement pumps were a bit different since they were metric. All new replacement pumps have metal serial number tags on them - and none of the original USA pumps have tags.
So, I'm wondering - what do you have? It has to be one of what I've mentioned.