Will not start now? Ran great for 30-40 minutes

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SHINTON
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Will not start now? Ran great for 30-40 minutes

Post by SHINTON » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:53 am

Posting this for my Dad... all thoughts and suggestions are welcome!!

--

The dozer ran pretty good for about 30-40 minutes. Then it shut off just like you had turned off an ignition switch.

The coil was very hot so we replaced it (it had a 6 volt coil and we replaced it with a 12 volt - but everything seems to check the same with either coil) .

We could get 12 volts by checking either side (+ or --) and we seemed to get fire to the distributer , but not the plugs.

We have checked for continuity (will conduct electricity from one end to the other) on all the wires and they are OK (they are also new). Rotary button also checks OK for continuity . The points open and close and they fire.

The logical conclusion would seem to be that it is out of time, BUT then why did it run OK for the 30+ minutes? See if anyone on the boards have any ideas....

We are planning to change it ALL over to a 12 volt system with a negative ground . Right now it is a 6 volt system with a positive ground and using a 12 volt battery. The generator is un-hooked and the ignition switch is frozen in the on position - so we have to disconnect the battery to shut it off. I think the voltage regulator is disconnected as well ; I looks like fire is going directly from the ignition switch to the coil.

It was Fun while it Run!!!

dad

Thanks folks!!!

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Post by SHINTON » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:02 am

Sorry, needed to add, this is a 440 IC, gasser, with a freshly rebuilt carb!!

Sam

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Post by RedDirt » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:15 am

Check the gas tank cap to make sure there is not a vacuum developing in the tank due to a plugged vent. 30 minutes might just pull enough vacuum to stop the gas flow.

Check for gas getting to the carb.

Check spark by pulling a plug, put the wire back on and ground the plug threads, then cranking. Finger on the spark plug hole in the cylinder head and the spark should fire near the end of the air rush out of the spark plug hole.
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Post by Willyr » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:26 am

if everything checks out, wait till this evening and try cranking it again. If there is a short in the wires you will see it then (the high voltage coming out of the wires grounding to something instead of the plugs).
former owner of a 1956 420c
All help is greatly appreciated.

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Post by Pammark » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:42 am

Gasser Ignition Problems

I once jumped a Ford 8N tractor (6 volt system) with a 12 V car and blew the igntion coil. Hearing that yours got hot makes me believe it too shorted out. It is important that the points in the distributor open and close. This provides the momentary ground to the coil to energized the magnetic field. The wire from the points should connect to the neg terminal on the coil. The pos terminal should go to the battery/ignition switch. I know it is common for JD to have a pos ground system, but i do not think it makes a difference in the coil. The outside of the coil is metal and grounded too. I think it lends that the neg terminal on the coil should be the same polarity as the chassis ground. Correct me if I am wrong.

You can try either way.

Rotate the engine by hand until the points are closed. Turn on the ignition and take a small screwdriver and manually open and close the points, looking for a snap sound or spark. Make sure the sparks are not the screwdriver shorting across the contacts. If you have this, you have power to the coil. Take a wire (even 12 gauge household wire will do) and connect the top of the coil to a spare sparkplug also grounded to the engine somewhere. When you do the points trick with the screwdriver, you should see the sparkplug spark too. If not, try a better sparkplug gound or the coil is defective.

If all goes well, you have a good coil and points. As the engine rotates, the moment the points just open is the time the spark will generate. You can look at the engine timing to see if it apears to be correct. If you have a good coil and a good spark and the timing seems to be OK, then assemble the top of the distributor and see if each spark plug fires. If not, then maybe the distibutor cap is defective. Cracks and dirt trails in the cap will do funny things. I hope this helps.


Mark
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Tigerhaze
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Post by Tigerhaze » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:13 pm

The dozer ran pretty good for about 30-40 minutes. Then it shut off just like you had turned off an ignition switch.
I had a lot of issues with intermittent electrical problems on my Ford 8N (converted to 12V negative ground). One of the main issues ended up being a worn ignition switch.

Are you sure that the switch isn't shorting out? I would either put a jumper between the switch or replace with a new switch and see if that solves your problem.
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JD440ICD2006
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Post by JD440ICD2006 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:55 pm

What you describe seems to be electrical related, not fuel or other.
I have had practically new condensors go bad and would do exactly what you said. It is like you cut a wire.
Also, check all wiring to be sure that insulation did not contact something hot enough to cause it to short out.
1959 JD 440ICD w/64 Power Angle Tilt Blade
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
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1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)

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Post by SHINTON » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:56 pm

Ok, I had copied and pasted comments for pop and here is those comments/emails and his replies. (Gary is my uncle / ASE cert master mechanic, etc..)

--


Gasser Ignition Problems

I once jumped a Ford 8N tractor (6 volt system) with a 12 V car and blew the igntion coil. Hearing that yours got hot makes me believe it too shorted out. It is important that the points in the distributor open and close. This provides the momentary ground to the coil to energized the magnetic field.

The wire from the points should connect to the neg terminal on the coil.

The pos terminal should go to the battery/ignition switch ###.

I know it is common for JD to have a pos ground system, but i do not think it makes a difference in the coil.

The outside of the coil is metal and grounded too.

SRH: the pos ground is driving our thinking crazy (and marks too – to a degree ###).

I think it lends that the neg terminal on the coil should be the same polarity as the chassis ground. Correct me if I am wrong.

###I think this is correct and it is the way it is hooked up; the hot wire is coming from the ignition and comes to the negative side of the coil – the wire from the coil (positive side) then goes to the distributor and the points.
It seems to make sense then that the coil housing is also positively charged as it is bolted to the positively charged block. See how crazy all this seems. BUT that MIGHT explain why we get a 12 volt check on both coil wires


Bottom line for the moment is that it is hooked up like it came to us AND the same way it was while running for the 30+ minutes.

You can try either way.

Rotate the engine by hand until the points are closed. Turn on the ignition and take a small screwdriver and manually open and close the points, looking for a snap sound or spark. Make sure the sparks are not the screwdriver shorting across the contacts. WE DID THAT

If you have this, you have power to the coil. Take a wire (even 12 gauge household wire will do) and connect the top of the coil to a spare sparkplug also grounded to the engine somewhere. When you do the points trick with the screwdriver, you should see the sparkplug spark too. If not, try a better sparkplug ground or the coil is defective.

I do not quite understand all this, but I will pass it on to Gary

If all goes well, you have a good coil and points. As the engine rotates, the moment the points just open is the time the spark will generate. You can look at the engine timing to see if it appears to be correct. If you have a good coil and a good spark and the timing seems to be OK, then assemble the top of the distributor and see if each spark plug fires. If not, then maybe the distributor cap is defective. Cracks and dirt trails in the cap will do funny things. I hope this helps.


Mark


Check the gas tank cap to make sure there is not a vacuum developing in the tank due to a plugged vent. 30 minutes might just pull enough vacuum to stop the gas flow. We DO get a vacuum – but the problem is the spark – however I will work on the vent.

Check for gas getting to the carb.

Check spark by pulling a plug, put the wire back on and ground the plug threads, then cranking. Finger on the spark plug hole in the cylinder head and the spark should fire near the end of the air rush out of the spark plug hole I think we can try this…… ALSO plan to check the timing this way – then fine tune once it is running.


-[ I see, so as the air pushes out the hole/cylinder compresses is when the spark would ignite the fuel, etc…interesting way to measure this]


Correct me if I am wrong, but the way it was set up, you had 12 volts running into a 6 volt regulator / would explain the heat? (IE, you are running twice as much as normal since it does NOT have the voltage regulator inline?) Probably correct – we plan to buy one of those porcelain reducers for the 12 volt coil

Is the battery now dead? Since you are not recharging it? (Or low enough that it will turn/crank but not enough juice to actually start?)

Battery is still strong – putting out 12 volts & turning engine fast – but I will re-charge it before we try working on it again.

You mentioned timing… could the wires have gotten switched on the coil during all of this? That would act like a timing issue since they would be 180 degrees out. I know I would have sworn I put them back on right on my blazer that one time but it ended up being one of my issues…

Wires are correct – AND the distributor is in the same position as when we got it BUT I am not sure it is right ACTUALLY , I tried it this morning in sever al positions (over a 45 degree turn) as I ran the starter and did not get a hit. So I returned it to the original position and locked it down.


Or when you switched the coil, you have it backwards (positive on the negative, vice versa since it is “positive” grounded?) Or something else jiggled loose or grounding across, etc like we had in TN/VA? THEY are hooked up the same as when we got it – but really hooked up (not loose) IF they are grounded out it would have to be at the condenser or later…

You ARE seeing spark at the plug though? Switched plugs out ?

Sometimes… and plugs are clean / new (but Champion – so who knows – we will check that too….

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Tigerhaze
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Post by Tigerhaze » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:59 pm

Those Champion plugs really complicate the issue- I would replace with Autolite or similar before you go too much further.
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Post by SHINTON » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:03 pm

Tigerhaze wrote:Those Champion plugs really complicate the issue- I would replace with Autolite or similar before you go too much further.
Really, not hear that before, is there a specific plug? (Professing my ignorance on spark plugs, had no idea this could really be an issue?)

Is there a specific "model" of Autolite (or other) that we should put in there?

I know in Bristol when we picked it up, we had a bad spark plug we finally replaced with one from a chainsaw and it started right up?!

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Post by Tigerhaze » Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:19 pm

Scroll down to the bottom of this thread when you get a chance, especially the links to other posts on the subject. We talk about Autolites versus Champions pretty routinely:

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... t=autolite

The main thread I posted was for a 1010, so you will need to get the correct cross number from lavoy or others but will be easy to do. It may also be in the other threads.
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JD440ICD2006
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Post by JD440ICD2006 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:56 pm

I want to be clear that I am not arguing nor disputing anyone's experience with various brands of spark plugs. I can only speak of mine.
I bought a box (10) of Champion H-10 spark plugs several years ago. I bought them because they were in the TSC where I was shopping. I would have bought whatever brand was there.
I have had no problems at all with the Champion plugs. I have them in a 1950 M, starts everytime unless the 6 volt battery has drained. I have them in a 1958 420W, starts everytime except as previously noted.
I also have them in a 1959 440 IC. I switched it to 12 volts, and you guessed it, starts each and every time.
1959 JD 440ICD w/64 Power Angle Tilt Blade
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)

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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:53 pm

Hi,

I've had some 2-cyl engines that eat Champions and yet others that do not. For example the 420c does not like Champions and does like Autolite. The 'M' runs fine on either.

I don't bother trying to figure that one out. I just live with it. Ha! :P

Look *really, really* hard at the ILBD switch. The ignition (I) part of that multi-section switch loves to get *really, really* intermittent on the first (I) position after 60 years of use.

As in it will run one minute, then quit the next. Maddening until you figure it out......

Mine got to be so flaky, that I just stuck a SPST bat-handled toggle switch in parallel and use that for the ignition function.

The other sections of the original switch, Lights, Bright rear and Dim rear still work just fine since they have about ten million fewer operations on them - the dozer was run 99.9% of the time during the day, you see. ;)

I had a cover plate where the hour meter used to be (burned out around 1970), so popping a hole in the center of that was a great place to stick a bypass ignition switch.

later!

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside manual blade
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Willyr
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Post by Willyr » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:23 pm

I seem to rememberthere was a resistance reding you could get off of the ignition coil (telling you if it is worth keeping or replacing). Something like 1.47 ohms?

I may have to take Lavoys stance here and claim blissfull ignorance.

Oh by the way, 12 volt? If you use a alternator to recharge the system? Negative ground only, good way to fry the tree.
former owner of a 1956 420c
All help is greatly appreciated.

Proud owner of a project 1952 JD 60

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFehqXVd9z4

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Post by SHINTON » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:02 am

Gary picked up some new parts ; we are going to switch to the 12 volt neg/ground system. He put on anew rotary-button and disconnected one plug wire to "test" for spark.

When he hit the starter, it started on just the one cylinder. So, he connected the other cylinder and drove it over to the car port behind my shop.

To avoid burning up the new coil (or something else) we are just going to wait until we get the rest of the parts and switch to a full 12 volt system before doing anymore work.

I think the alternator [edit-I suspect it is actually a "generator"-samjr] that came with L'Willies engine will probably work IF I build some new mounting brackets. When done the wiring system will be basically the same as L'willies (less the lights).

ANYWAY, the good news is that it started!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks to all who supplied information - who knows what more information we may need, but right now LIFE IS GOOD

dad

--

By L'willies, he means the 46 CJ2a that dad restored!!! I suspect the 440 will end up look as nice someday!!! :)

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