1010 glow plugs burn out!!!!

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robk
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1010 glow plugs burn out!!!!

Post by robk » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:48 am

My 1010C is 12 volt start but has two battery boxes, one under the seat and one hanging off the back of the operator's seat. When I bought it, the owner had one battery in it and the cables to the rear battery area were wrapped in balls of elec tape. I want to use this thing all year here in CT, so I added a second battery in parallel - that is: pos to pos to starter and two negs grounded. Each battery is around 850cca. So I assume I've got 2 x 850 = 1700amps going to my glow plugs. I've burned out two sets of glow plugs! So I'm guessing I've got WAAAAAY to much amperage going to the plugs. If that's the case, some of you guys must have had the same experience. What the heck is going on here?
Last edited by robk on Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JD440ICD2006
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Post by JD440ICD2006 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:55 am

You have them in parallel which doubles the amps, likely cause of zapping the glow plugs. Is there a way to run that circuit to the starter but run the glow plugs off of just one battery?
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Post by H-D » Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:31 am

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I had always thought of the amperage capacity as a lake, that a circuit was like a vessel to carry water in; that it wouldn't be possible for it to carry enough to destroy itself without great pressure (voltage). I may have to go back to the very basics of electrical theory & rebuild my concept. Are the glow plugs on a 1010 12 volt? I'm afraid I'm ignorant of this as well, having only 'played' with the two cylinder forerunners.

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JD440ICD2006
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Post by JD440ICD2006 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:51 am

I=V/r

A neat analogy to help understand these terms is a system of plumbing pipes. The voltage is equivalent to the water pressure, the current (amps) is equivalent to the flow rate, and the resistance is like the pipe size.

One can have high volts, low amps, along with high amps, low volts.

So, duplicate batteries in parallel doubles the "flow rate", but the "pressure" stays about the same. If they are in series, the "pressure" is doubled and the "flow rate" remains about the same.
1959 JD 440ICD w/64 Power Angle Tilt Blade
1959 JD 440ICD w/63 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 440IC w/602 Manual Angle Blade
1959 JD 730D W SE (many options)
1950 JD M S w/M-20 Mower
1952 JD M W
1955 FORD 640 (burns the most fuel)

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Post by KenP » Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:03 pm

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Post by Lavoy » Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:43 pm

Rob and I have been e-mailing back and forth about this subject for a couple days. My first thought was that he had the batteries in series and had smoked the glow plugs with voltage. He has double checked, and he is in parallel. If I remember correctly, total amps available doesn't matter, the glow plugs will only draw what they are capable of drawing.
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Pammark
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Post by Pammark » Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:45 pm

I agree with KenP.

Watts is heat (power) and with the equation watts = volts X amps, the volts is constant at 12 V. The amps is constant because it is determined by the resisitance of the load (glow plugs). Therefore the watts stays the same. The only way to increase watts and burn something out is to either raise the volts or increase the resistance amps of the load.

If the two batteries are connected in parallel (pos to pos ; neg to neg), then you get double the amps available but the same voltage. If the batteries are in series (neg to pos), you get double the voltage, but the amps of the lesser battery. Maybe the glow plugs blew because the batteries are in series and not parallel. This will double the volts and double the watts. It probably makes the starter run really fast too.
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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:35 pm

Hi,

No, the parallel batteries are incapable of causing the glow plugs to draw more amps than the resistance of said plugs demands they draw given 12 volts.

The original thought I had when reading this is that an error was made and the batteries wound up in series, giving 24 volts. That would fry glow plugs in a hurry. But, that is now ruled out for sure so....

The only thing I can think of is that there was an additional resistance of the cable from the original single battery that is now reduced by the addition of a second cable.

Even so, all that I can see happening is that old glow plugs that were on the verge of failing were forced to fail right now because they are now able to draw the current they desire, without a limiting series resistance that was being provided by the original single cable and battery.

In my experience, glow plugs tend to decrease their resistance over time and so start drawing additional current. Usually this fries the glow plug, but I have seen it fry the wiring and/or connectors leading to the glow plug as well.

If this is so, then installing new glow plugs ought to magically correct the situation.

The other thing I've noticed is that when one glow plug decides it's time to exit, then it isn't long thereafter that the rest of them follow suit. Sort of like headlight bulbs - if one goes, change them both! ;)

Later!

Stan
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robk
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Post by robk » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:44 pm

This discussion is exactly what is so great about this website. I appreciate the help so much. Here are the facts again to be clear: when I got the machine, it had one 12v battery and no working glow plugs. It had a box in back of the driver's seat for a second battery so I installed a second one. They are brand new 875cca wired POS to POS to starter (parallel). I bought 4 new glow plugs from Lavoy. They worked great for maybe a couple of months of intermittent use and then the motor was impossible to start. Two years latter I finally got around to testing the failed plugs with a battery and ammeter on the bench. They are all dead. If I do go for another set of plugs, I will replace the wiring and connectors from the ignition switch but I'd feel much better if I could figure out what's wrong here. Lavoy says he's had NO FAILURE ISSUES with glow plugs so I think I'm missing something simple and obvious.
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Post by Lavoy » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:40 pm

It should have nothing to do with it, but you are set up negative ground instead of positive.
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Post by robk » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:59 pm

I have a one wire alternator. The machine came to me with a negative ground. You are right though. My manual shows positive ground but I think that only matters if you have a generator.
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Post by KenP » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:02 am

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robk
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Post by robk » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:25 am

Excellent idea. I have tested the circuit with a voltmeter. The switch does work at each cylinder but I cannot say something is NOT shorted when the machine is bouncing around.
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Stan Disbrow
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Post by Stan Disbrow » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:43 am

Hi,

Yes, they ought not to be powered on unless you want them powered on.

I have run into that before, mainly on Ford F350's. They use them every time one does a cold start - part of their emissions scheme. That leads to failures - a lot. They use a relay, much like a starter relay, so I simply add in a toggle switch under the dash to keep the relay off - until *I* decide I need them and use said switch. That saves a lot of glow plug changing, which is especially important once they went and stuck the fool things under the valve covers!

I can't think of why pos or neg ground would matter to a simple resistor element. That can't be it.

All I can think of is that they might have used some part of the wiring as a series resistor and now you've lowered that value by the addition of another battery lead.

I now wish I had a 1010 manual and could look at the wiring diagram. Alas, my manual set ends at the 430 and picks up again at the 350 (which does not have glow plugs). That's probably because I've never had a 1010 to need a manual for.....

I will say that the series resistance idea seems unlikely to me, though. That really makes no sense at all. For old plugs, it does, but for new plugs it doesn't. But, it's the best I can come up with, and I've even had all night to mull it over.

I suppose the next step is to put in new plugs and revert back to the single battery. Put a voltmeter onto the connection at a plug, and turn it on. Note that reading, then go back to the dual battery setup and measure again.

If you have a significantly higher reading with two batteries than with one, that will tell you that you've managed to remove an effective series resistance that they were counting on. If there's no significant difference, then this can't be it, either.

Anyway, that's what I'd do next. When odd things start happening, it's time to measure *something*, and in this case, volts at the plug connections would be it.....

Later!

Stan
There's No Such Thing As A Cheap Crawler!

Useta Have: '58 JD 420c 5-roller w/62 inside blade
Useta Have: '78 JD350C w/6310 outside blade
Useta Have: '68 JD350, '51 Terratrac GT-25
Have: 1950 M, 2005 x495, 2008 5103 (now known as 5045D)

robk
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Post by robk » Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:25 am

I've scanned my wiring diagram. I'll try to figure out how to post it here. If I've got Lavoy and Stan scratching their heads, I'm in trouble. Lavoy? You got any more of these Golden Glow Plugs in stock? Money means nothing to a crawler owner as Stan's exit line says. Stan's suggestion is my next move. Many thanks.
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