Ideas on Freeing Up Stuck Engines on 2010s

[Tigerhaze]

Good morning-

I purchased a 2010 crawler dozer last week from a member of this board that has a stuck engine- the owner indicated that the engine was rebuilt about 2 years ago and had very few hours when it was last parked. It then sat outside for two years and is now stuck. I presume it is the infamous "rain cap allowed water into the exhaust manifold" issue. I also have a 2010 crawler loader I purchased a couple of years ago with the same story- recently rebuilt but then stuck after sitting in the weather. It doesn't have the exhaust stack attached so I know that is an issue.

Since they had both been recently rebuilt, I hate to have to open them up again and would like to break them loose if possible. I have done this on gas cars before but not a diesel engine. I had the follow questions for those who have attempted this before:

1) Should I try to use a rust solvent/penetrant, and if so what kind? I noticed one person on this board said he has used brake fluid with a 80% success rate. I'm guessing leakage past the cylinder rings will be minimal since the engines have low hours on the rebuild.
2) If I use a liquid, I am assuming somehow I will have to remove the fluid before I try to break loose in case one of the cylinders is near TDC on the compression stroke? Am I risking more damage doing that?
3) My typical method is to put a really good breaker bar and socket on the crankshaft (sometimes with an extension bar like a pipe to get additional torque) and then put as much weight as possible. i know the crankshaft bolts are usually pretty stout but do I have any worries about breaking them off in a machine this old?
4) If the engine can't be freed and the main issue was water forming rust in the cylinders, what type of damage could I expect and what particular components would likely need replacement? Again I am operating on the assumption that the engines have very few hours on a rebuild.

Any ideas are appreciated-thanks.

[JWB Contracting]

I would remove the injectors and use a lubricant such as Fluid Film or even diesel fuel. I would then let it sit for a few days before making an attempt to break it loose, with a bar in the starter hole or with a socket on the crank shaft.

The line plate is getting to be a very hard to find item so you will want be gentle. If you do get it free, I would still do a comlete strip down as you will most likely need to replace the rings and/or pistons.

[jtrichard]

if you remove the precups you might be able to see how bad the damage is even if you get it freeed up if the rings are stuck you will burn a piston bite the bullet and pull the head

[Tigerhaze]

Thanks for the ideas so far- I know it would be best to pull the heads but if I go that far then I'm guessing it isn't much more work to pull the engine and do a re-rebuild.

even if you get it freeed up if the rings are stuck you will burn a piston

Maybe a dumb question, but wouldn't the rings be free if the engine can be turned over?

[JD440ICD2006]

It just depends on how "stuck" it is and how it got that way. In certain conditions, the rings will stick in the slots and while they slide on the cylinder walls, they will not seal the area above them thus causing futher issues such as loss of compression, oil usage and blow by, to name a few.

[Tigerhaze]

Ah, that makes sense now- thank you for the additional explanation.

[Willyr]

Get a bigger dozer, put yours in high gear, and push it. Who knows maybe it will start?

[jtrichard]

you cant push it if its hlr trans and if its standard you can bend the crank i know some that did it on a ihc 466 had a pin hole in a cly got water on top of piston would not crank over with the starter so the dumb s##t pushes it oh he got it started then ran it till it took out a main

[Lavoy]

If it is rust stuck, there is going to be rust in the bore, may very well score a piston even if you break it loose. Liner plates are readily available, but pricey, so I would not take any chance of damaging this one if the engine was truly rebuilt. For the cost of a gasket set, pull the head, get the stuck piston out, and hone the bore so it is nice and clean, clean up the pistons, put in new rings. As was already mentioned, even if it frees up, you might have stuck rings, no way to find out unless you pull the pistons.
As far as what to use, water is the only thing that truly penetrates rust. Rust comes from water, not some magic weasel piss in a can. Some penetrants work better than other, but on the whole, I doubt there is a nickels worth of difference in all of them. With the head off, you can pour water in the bore/s and eventually the rust will soften to the point the piston will slide out.
Lavoy

[Gil]

I tried pouring a gallon of military surplus rifle bore cleaner into the spark plug holes of an Allis Chalmers gas engine. I poured a little in every day over a number of days. I cannot tell you the success yet because it is still on the projects to do list.

I know that when I do work on it, I plan to drop the oil pan, remove the rod bearings, pull the head, and try to get the pistons out. If gentle taps with a wood block on the pistons do not free them, I might have to try the methods to use leverage to turn the engine over. But I will not let the pistons work up and down in the cylinders until I can clean them.

If you manage to turn the engine without unbuttoning the engine, you may dislodge rust into the engine. Then, even if you change the oil, particles of rust can migrate to the bearings, channels, and the head. If you consider how any rusted piece of metal feels, even after you chip off the rust, you will find a rough pitted metal that is not the type of surface you want on you cylinder wall or elsewhere in your engine. Gil

[Lavoy]

If your Allis is a sleeved engine and you pull the head, make sure to put a bolt and heavy washer on each sleeve to hold it in place. If you don't and you rotate the engine, I will likely push the sleeve up instead of the piston.
Lavoy

[Gil]

That's a good warning about stabilizing the liner if the head is off. Actually I don't know if the Allis is sleeved or not. I have not gotten that far yet. This was my grandfather's original tractor. It had been sold five different times and I went from buyer to buyer to eventually track it down. Now it sits behind a lineup of JD440 projects like putting on a six-way blade and rebuilding a direction reverser. I'll have to wait to get the construction yellow paint out of the spray gun before I can fill it with orange. Gil

[Tigerhaze]

Thanks for all of the advice- as Lavoy says the deck liner is really pricey so I should probably go the safe route as mentioned and pull the head and oil pan at a minimum. I think I willl just pull the engine on my stuck loader engine because it is probably going to become a parts machine anyhow. Then I can go through it at my leisure and make sure the parts aren't worn.

I will have to think about whether I want to pull the engine on the dozer since it looks like in good shape otherwise. How much of pain is it to pull connecting rod bearings in-frame on a 2010? it doesn't look like there is much clearance under there but I haven't removed the skid plates. I can already tell to pull the head involves removing the cowl, fuel tank, etc.

[jtrichard]

i just did in frame on my 2010 is not hard at all first put two 6x6 or railroad ties under each track you can block blade up if you want to get in from front i did all mine from rear remove both belly pans and oil pan remove cover over fuel tank then tank you dont have to remove the cowl i took out pistons and liner put new sleve seals in mine

[Swawpy]

It is always hard to guess what some define a rebuild as. About a month ago I looked at a machine that was said to have been just rebuilt...with paperwork and receipts. Turns out it got a set of reman injectors and a rebuilt starter. It kinda depends what kind of money your in it for and risk your willing to take (not asking, just sayin) I have personally unstuck many an engine...some provided years of service and absolutely purred, others had bigger issues. All good advice here and don't want to step on any toes but most certainly can an engine be freed up and put into service without rebuilding if its not too bad. It does not take much more than a haze of surface rust sometimes to tax the starter and not want to turn over, only 2 years setting right? We are not talking an airplane engine here and go flying...crossing fingers. Try the easy stuff first without getting carried away or too violent with the old girl, you may get off easy where she just needs a gentle persuading. [/b]