i got screwed at an auction jd 450e no reverse when warm, !

greg noble

bought an 1986 jd 450e at a richie brothers auction in montreal, i bid online but i had a friend that test drove the dozer for me at the site, everything was ok when the dozer was cold, ha ha ha ha but the owner knew the tranny was toasted. also when i got it home i also noticed bubbles in the rad so it has engine issues too.
my question is what is the most common problem with the reversers.i can hear a winding sound in reverse. the trans and after half hour or so there is no reverse.
What is likely the source of the bubbles in the rad?head gasket or cylinder liners?
Can i buy a rebuilt tranny or the shaft that holds the HRL Clutch packs?
how likely is it that the control manifold is the problem?
i have to repair it cause i could never sell it with a clear concience.
_________________
1986 jd 450e, 1971 jd350.

CSnyder · MC crawler Joined: 08 Apr 2011 Posts: 7 Location: NE IOWA

Wow! Sorry to hear of the problems you have with it. I had a similar situation with a mower I bought online with them. Im no help on the reverse issue but sounds like a headgasket is bad for bubbles. I just bought one for my 350C on www.agkits.com
_________________
My truck doesnt leak oil...it sweats horsepower!

jtrichard · Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:45 pm Post subject:

unless you get it dirt cheap auctions are the worst place to buy and most of time the best place to sell
_________________
2010 with 622 dozer with mod. 35 ripper and a 2010 with 622 dozer bought in 1969 and a 2010 loader with drott and mod. 36 ripper

Tigerhaze · Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:39 pm Post subject:

I'm sorry you had problems with that auction. I've seen some pretty worn out equipment sold at Ritchie Bros. auctions- including a forklift that was run across the ramp by an operator continuously spraying ether into the intake as he drove it. Online is the worst way to bid at a Ritchie Bros. auctions because you get still photos of the equipment and can't see the things that happen onsite with broken equipment.

Having said that, you can get some good deals on both conventional and unique equipment. I go to Ritchie Bros. and other equipment auctions with the expectation that the equipment will need parts and work and bid accordingly. They have a cost tracker online to show what a particular model has gone for previously at other auctions to help with that decision.
_________________
(2) JD 2010 diesel crawler loaders; (1) JD 2010 diesel dozer with hydraulic 6-way blade; (1) Model 50 backhoe attachment

greg noble · Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:47 pm Post subject:

thanks guys, i guess i have to live with it now and try to get the darn tranny fixed, i borrowed a tech manual from a friend and it sounds like a massive job even to get the tranny out! i have lots of experience with machanic work, but this job i will not be paid for ha ha h a
i have read stories here about guys that haVE rebuilt the HLR discs and still didn`t get the machine to work.oh my![/b]
_________________
1986 jd 450e, 1971 jd350.

tjdub

There's actually no reverser in this model, it's just a powershift transmission. Have you already changed the fluid, cleaned the intake screen, and replaced the filter? That would be the first step in diagnosing the problem. If you're lucky you'll find that the transmission oil looks like milk and the intake filter is coated in sludge. If that's the case, changing the transmission oil twice, cleaning the intake screen twice, and changing the filter 3 times will get you back in business. If it looks clean, then the previous owner already tried this and you probably have an internal leak in the transmission somewhere.

Tigerhaze · Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:55 am Post subject:

Greg, I had assumed that you had already done the work that Tjdub mentions and knew you needed to open up the HLR. If not, then I agree that the oil and filter maintenance work that Tjdub mentions is the first start.

If you still have issues, you can also do some pressure tests to try and isolate the issue. I believe the testing procedures are in the service manual. it is pretty common for worn out HLRs to work fine cold but lose function when hot. However still good to check pressures because sometimes there can be other issues such as blocked lines can cause problems.

There are a lot of dicussions in the archives here about HLR issues so if you want to read up you can learn a lot- however it is helpful to read the service manual as well on this.
_________________
(2) JD 2010 diesel crawler loaders; (1) JD 2010 diesel dozer with hydraulic 6-way blade; (1) Model 50 backhoe attachment

JWB Contracting · Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject: 450C HLR issues

I have one that we purchased a newly painted 450C loader in the dead row. When we tore it apart, we figured that someone had done a real nice rebuild but then the tranny would fade when the oil got hot.

We have torn it apart twice and still cannot fit the issue. We now think it is in the steering clutch packs. Will be tearing it down again this winter.
_________________
Jason Benesch

John Deere 350C Crawler Dozer with 3pt Hitch
John Deere 2010 Crawler Dozer with Winch
John Deere 430U Tractor (2)
John Deere 435 Tractor
Oliver 1900 Tractor

greg noble · Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject:

thanks,, i think i can do the rebuild but its stories like JWB Contracting that scare me, if i can get the time to tear it down,and then do something wrong or not notice something and have to do it all over again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats hard stuff. I would rather buy a complete rebuilt trans i think with a warrenty. is that an option? can you buy a complete rebuilt?
_________________
1986 jd 450e, 1971 jd350.

JWB Contracting · Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:26 pm Post subject: stumped

Yes, my dad has been working on these units since the mid 60's. We do follow the manual and have a good idea where the weak points are. Make sure you are really thorough, as this is the first one I can remember that we have had an issue with. We think a rubber is digested in the oil passages that feed the the steering cluches and are loosing pressure this way. It is a shame that when they went to the C models that they used tubing and rubbers to run high pressure oil instead of steel lines with fittings.

We do buy, sell and fix 350 and 450 deeres and it is not very often that we run into problems. It fits well with our summer time only utility construction business.[/b]
_________________
Jason Benesch

John Deere 350C Crawler Dozer with 3pt Hitch
John Deere 2010 Crawler Dozer with Winch
John Deere 430U Tractor (2)
John Deere 435 Tractor
Oliver 1900 Tractor

greg noble · Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:53 am Post subject:

thanks Jason, so how do you guys work on the trans?do you remove the complete unit from the machine like the manual says? or do you remove the engine and bell housing and work on the trans from the belly of the machine?
would there be an advantage in removing the top from the trans and looking inside while reversing to see where the leaks are?
_________________
1986 jd 450e, 1971 jd350.

JWB Contracting · Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject: Removal

We always go from the front and remove the engine and loader/dozer assembly to give more room and often put a set of bare track chains on

Not often you can fix anything from the top. Is is usually the transmission pump and front cluster that give trouble.
_________________
Jason Benesch

John Deere 350C Crawler Dozer with 3pt Hitch
John Deere 2010 Crawler Dozer with Winch
John Deere 430U Tractor (2)
John Deere 435 Tractor
Oliver 1900 Tractor

digitup2 · 350 crawler Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 811

If you are having problems with the reverser then the reverse side of the clutch pack with the forward reverse cluster in it is going out .Now is the pressure dropping in reverse only .If this is the problem then the seal in the reverse piston is bad and needs to be replaced .I would go in from the top it isn't rocket science just replace the seals and the friction plates in the hole clutch pack also shaft seals when you are doing this.We bought a down hole scope camera from Mac tools and it is small enough that all lines inside transmissions are tested when apart you can see right down the lines we had several rubber hose lines fool us in the past but with this unit no collapsed rubber lines or clogged steel lines get past us now .Remember the pump end play can show when the pump is worn out end play kills a gear pump so check it if you can get to it .Get back to us .Digitup.

greg noble · Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:56 am Post subject:

thanks digitup. so what parts in the HLR can be replaced with out removing the engine? or complete assembly like the book says.
i think what you said is right the high range seems perfect but the reverse dies almost totally and the low range develops a delay at the same time.
i have in the past changed to much thicker oils and was able to deal with a leak for a little longer. is this an option here ? or will i just damage the trans more by using the dozer, cause it migh be some time till i can get this thing torn down. THANKS
_________________
1986 jd 450e, 1971 jd350.

digitup2 · 350 crawler Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 811

I have put in two jugs of Lucas trany fix in and finished the jobs several times and the last dozer I did that too was a 450E I don't recommend heavier oils after clutch rebuild so replace with Hy-guard if you got it! .Do all clutch packs when it is apart .I always figure that way you don't have to go back in . replace all the fiber discs and check the steels for warp with a straight edge across the steel as these will warp when heated and or slipping occurs if the slightest bit of warp exists then replace the steel faces as well .You should be able to do a 450E from the top .It saves a lot of time and agony that way . Check the sump and pickup screen as well .We are right here for any more questions so good luck .Digitup.